“Just look at her. You know the type… Sure, she acts innocent now, but you know what she’s thinking. As soon as deployment starts, she’ll have guy ‘friends’ all over her until homecoming. Those women are all the same.”
My respects to the gentlemen reading, but today I address my fellow military wives. At some time or another, I suspect many of us have heard whispers like those at the top of this post. Even when we know the statements are false and that military wives are not, by and large, faithless or deceitful, it still burns to hear that kind of slander against ourselves and members of our community.
Consider, though, that there is another group women who could easily have had the same words flung at them: female servicemembers.
And what’s worse? We, as military wives, may be the ones perpetuating those hurtful stereotypes about the women who serve alongside our husbands.
This morning’s virtual stroll around the blogosphere led me to a corner I had not yet discovered: Captain Molly. Like SpouseBUZZ, it is a shared blog whose authors represent a variety of viewpoints and experiences drawn from military life. Where SpouseBUZZ aims to provide a virtual support group for military spouses, however, Captain Molly gives voice to women in uniform.
In a recent post, author Kensie Marks asks the question, “Do any of you other women serving get some terrible looks and stares from the spouses of those you serve with?” She relates the discomfort she felt at a recent command picnic, as if there were “a thousand sets of eyes” on her. As one of the only women in her unit, she is accustomed to standing out, but on this occasion she seems to want to shrink into herself lest she draw suspicious glares from her colleagues’ spouses. In her experience, “wives are fierce.”
I was saddened to see what military wives look like through Kensie’s eyes. Are we so insecure that we see our husbands’ female coworkers as threats? Do we project impure intentions on all women in the unit because we’ve “heard stories” about what “everyone knows will happen” on deployment? Might we unwittingly harbor groundless suspicions about women in the service — the same aggravating stereotypes that some parts of the civilian world hold about us?
One might point out that it is just as much of a stereotype to say that all military wives are unduly suspicious of female servicemembers. I would agree, but the issue remains in spite of the hyperbole: there are members of our military community who feel they are under such unkind scrutiny from another subset of the military community that they “squirm and sweat” at what is supposed to be a fun social occasion. No matter who is involved, that’s a problem.
I’m not in the military, but my studies and volunteer work have often put in situations where I am one of the only women present. I would feel extremely insulted to learn that a classmate’s girlfriend or a fellow volunteer’s wife thought I was after anything other than courteous, professional relationships with the men around me. The mere thought of being so unfairly characterized upsets me. A lot.
I never, ever want to make someone in a similar situation feel that way. I treasure the opportunity to get to know Sampson’s squadronmates, men and women both. I want him to enjoy camaraderie with the people he relies upon and who rely upon him. That mutual understanding is something that will help them all do a tough job safely and well. I trust my husband and his colleagues of both sexes to maintain professional working relationships. If I did not, how could I expect that same trust and respect from my husband in return?
Just as I maintain that the majority of military spouses are faithful and want to do the best for their families, I believe that nearly all women in the military strive to serve with honor and accomplish their mission as professionally as their male colleagues. Though dependents and servicemembers face different challenges in this life, we are part of the same extended military family. Whether they wear the uniform of the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force, or Coast Guard, these ladies are not our enemy.
So, what should we do about the apparent rift between us? How can we go about building a trusting, supportive relationship with the women who have made a commitment to the very same service for which we are so proud of our husbands?
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About To the Nth
Comments
Love this! And so true. When the news came out about women on submarines, so many people asked if I was nervous that my husband could have a woman with him when he deployed. Gasp. No, not at all. Two of my closest friends at our post are in the military – I have never considered either of them as anything other than a genuinely nice person who just happens to work with my husband, and I would be the first one to defend them if anyone else said otherwise.
99.9% of the women who are serving are NOT checking out husbands. Just like 99.9% of the wives at home aren't sleeping around. It's the same few that are doing it that get all the publicity. And really, it always takes two to tango. Always. However, sometimes post deployment we see what we have somewhat affectionately / somewhat snarkily termed the "transfer of authority". Where the roles of work wife/work husband HAS to be set back into place with the real wife/real husband. When you've lived with someone and worked 24/7 with someone you become familiar with that person. That's great and that's as it should be, for safety, for job performance. However, on both sides, the familiarity needs to become professional when you're back with your spouse. I think it has less to do with male/female relationships and more to do with the utter and absolute isolation and need for bonding that goes on between soldiers. Sometimes it can be taken the wrong way by spouses. And sometimes it can be taken the wrong way by the female soldiers too. It's not that we think you want our husbands. it's that WE want our husband. We want them back, or we don't want them to go. We're not jealous of you. We're jealous of the military.
and all that said, during our last deployment our FRG had a blog and we had one female soldier who was our prime blogger and through her we'd get a picture of what we wouldn't get from our husbands. She shared photos, gifts and we in turn shared gifts and took care of her dogs etc. Turns out, she was sleeping with 2 of the husbands and ended up moving in with one. So…there's that too. It DOES happen.
I don't think anyone is questioning wether or not it happens. Point blank: Cheating happens. If a significant other can't be trusted then the relationship was probably over in the first place. I believe whole heartedly it is 100% the fault of the person in the committed relationship if anything other than rape occurred. The person in the relationship made the committment or said the vows, not the other person.
@Tishsa….
Both parties are at fault… That is a very ignorant comment you made. If you know a man is married then you are also at fault and it is very nasty.
yep. We had two female servicemembers in our unit during the last deployment. One slept with a married man who was her superior and got pregnant, breaking up his 17 year marriage and ruining both their careers and the other performed oral sex for every officer in the unit and got special perks like getting to fly home ahead of everyone else who had been BOG before her. Do I look more suspiciously at female servicemembers now? Yep. Not based on a stereotype, based on what I've seen.
Before my husband deployed last year, I wouldn't have thought twice about the women who work in his unit. As he works with computers, there are a LOT of single female soldiers in his unit. Then one day, my husband tells me a female soldier was caught co-habitating with a male soldier. (Meaning she was in his CHU/room after midnight.) Not only was she "co-habitating" with another soldier, she WAS MARRIED. Unfortunately for her, someone turned her in and she was reprimanded for breaking UCMJ. Now I know this isn't necessarily the norm and I generally shouldn't worry, but I've seen a lot of things like this happen and it does concern me a bit. And as always, the few female soldiers who do sleep around – and with married men – ruin things for everyone else…but it's not like there's a way to control/change any of it.
in fairness, the married men who sleep with them are equally to blame. These aren't poor defenseless unsuspecting husbands. There is a conscious choice on both sides to go down this path. I think if we are going to talk about females who do this, we HAVE to talk about the men who do this too. In my dh's unit a female was constantly in the CO's trailer. . All I heard from other wives was what a tramp this soldier was, yadda yadda. But no blame on the married CO for cheating, no "what a dog he is". All on her. (and yes, he did lose his job, so there is justice in the world sometimes).
The other side is, that I often feel like female soldiers are looking down on ME, as I am just a lowly wife, who doesn't KNOW and who'll never know what it is like. Not exactly a nice feeling either…
This too.
I agree
I felt that way when we were first married but figured out it was my own insecurities. Before we got married, I had a high-stress job with long hours that I loved and was damn good at… but I left it behind to move to my husband's duty station. I was unemployed for the first time in 10 years and felt like I wasn't doing enough to contribute to our finances or even our country so it was intimidating to meet these women who were doing it all!
BUT over time, I came to respect my role as a spouse. I may not have insane deadlines to meet or serve on the front lines, so to speak, but I do a lot to make sure my husband is the best at what he does. I take care of everything so when he goes to work, he can focus on his job… and I'm proud of what I do. You should be, too!
I am proud of what I do, doesn't diminish the feeling that some look down on me and make comments about how I just wouldn't know…and no matter how proud I am of my role as a wife, mother, friend, student, words and looks DO hurt. Do I let it bring me down? No, but the feeling lingers…
I have never had a female service member actually tell me that I wouldn't know. That is RUDE and ignorant. I'm so sorry you had that experience. :(
Meh, I got over it, resilience and all that ;)
My sister is a service member so I know she does not fall into the stereotype of female service members who are up to no good. I am a military spouse and I have seen both ends of the spectrum. I've been through it. I am friends with many female service members, some of which have worked with my husband, however, there were some who made my life hell…so to speak. This conversation could go on forever but I'll just say that some female service members are tripping and some military wives are too. Some female service members are out to 'mess around' with their married co-workers, some are not. It would be naive to think otherwise.
I try to stay open-minded, and I met many great female soldiers in my husband's units whom I didn't see as a "threat" ever, and I trust my husband, so that helps. As someone said before, it takes two people to cheat… But that being said, I also met the female soldiers who DID sleep around, all the way up and down the chain of command, and they did make it hard for their peers. Mind you, the single ones, as long as they hook up with other single soldiers, who cares, it is their prerogative, it's the married ones I mind, or the ones that go for the married guys, and it is hard to find respect for them. But then I also don't respect male soldiers who sleep around :))
"Mind you, the single ones, as long as they hook up with other single soldiers, who cares, it is their prerogative"
I would have to disagree her… I mean, yes, it is their prerogative, but there are times when people should care. When a female is sleeping around with dudes she works with left and right and doesn't even have the decency to keep it quiet, it reflects poorly with the other females that have to work with her.
Nobody says she has to keep her legs closed, but maybe she keeps her mouth shut or she takes her bedroom business else where because it is just bad business to be s***ing where you eat!
My husband has been in 12 years and this is the first time he has worked with women…so I have to admit this had never even crossed my mind until recently! When they announced that they were adding women to the unit I'd never seen such an uproar…but it was from the wives who think EVERY woman is after their husband – the cute female bartender, the girl who cuts his hair, you get the idea. Either you trust your spouse or you don't – whether it is to go out for a night with the guys or deploy for 12 months with a handful of women. I know the dymanics are different when you are talking about deployment – but if people are cheaters/tramps/whatever they are going to do it no matter where they are – being 5000 miles away from your spouse just makes it a little easier.
I've become friendly with one of the women my hubby works most closely with – and she recently told me that I was the first wife (she has been in about 10 years) who had ever made an effort to get to know her. I imagine that has to be a lonely feeling!
Thank you to all of our servicewomen! You are awesome and I certainly appreciate what you do!
I am a military spouse and I must say I have never had this thought cross my mind. In fact, I appreciate (even more) those women who keep it feminine, look great in the uniform, and have outgoing/bubbly personalities! I think it’s awesome that you can have it all – being an attractive, feminine woman in a man’s world – HOOAH! Take care of yourselves, keep your mind on the mission, and ignore the haters. Love to all of you~ Veronica
It does take two to tango but really it doesn’t matter if a a female service member wants to tango. You just have to trust that your husband doesn’t want to dance. Then it doesn’t matter what intentions another woman might have.
This is such an important topic! I personally try to make it clear to the women my husband works with that I appreciate all that they do. I know that there are those who have bad intentions, however, I refuse to punish every woman making the sacrifice to serve for the mistakes of few. I agree with an earlier post that some women in uniform make it difficult by treating me as if I am just the clueless wife. However, the women in uniform are just like the women outside of the military. There are several DIFFERENT personalities and not everyone is going to become our best friend. I think it is important to approach each person with a positive outlook and see how it goes.
I can't say that this is an all around thing, but usually, the attitude that spouses get from service members are because they said something condescending, misinformed (usually political), or flat out offensive.
To be perfectly honest- if a wife came up to me and said something to the effect of 'i know that not EVERY female has bad intentions and I am going to assume that you don't have those intentions either' – I would be offended. I would think that she is coming up to me and saying something because she is actually insecure and thinks that I am a problem (and I would probably WANT to tell her that her husband isn't that special that every woman wants to sleep with him, but I wouldn't say it- I would just hold it in and stew on it- end the conversation politely and walk away).
Speaking from experience on both sides of this issue I think that it comes down to how women treat each other in general. As a service member I felt the stigma of being one of only a few female soldiers in my unit, mostly from the spouses. Some of them were nice some of them were not and I never developed friendships with any of them. Now as a military spouse I understand the feeling of being treated like just a wife, that can't possibly understand, even though I have been on the other side as well. What it comes down to is that as women we should all work together to get through the difficulties of military life no matter what position you are in.
I just want to add that, sadly, it's not even just females vs. females in this situation. I've heard more than a few male Marines talk about their female coworkers, or just female Marines in general, in ways that are extremely degrading and those rumours can affect the attitudes of their wives. Maybe it's just due to the immaturity of some of the male servicemembers I've been around, but I feel like female servicemembers really get the raw end of the deal in general; they're stereotyped and not given the respect they deserve by male servicemembers OR their wives, all because both parties can feel threatened by them (albeit for very different reasons). Of course this is not always the case but those attitudes do exist.
those are likely the same men that come into work and say degrading things about the women that they sleep with.
(and the rest)
- The entitled spouse- I am sure anyone who watched the news earlier this year, when the government was talking about shutting down, remembers hearing any of the wives that were interviewed saying what an outrage it was that their only source of income may get cut off and that they were going to be screwed. My opinion has always been- if money is that tight, maybe there needs to be another income in the house- that always leads to the excuse about kids, which almost makes me back off, but then I remember that there are single mothers in the military (and else where) and they make it work- so there is no reason that it can't work in this case too (even if it isn't ideal).
With all these things I hear, it is hard not to develop a certain perception of the wives in general, and I have to say that the picture isn't pretty.
To top it all off, there is the little attitude of entitlement that you see when it is time to work late or stand duty on holidays- these gems usually go to the "single guy" (or girl); because why should a married guy have to do extra when he has a family at home (I have heard that said MANY times). My personal favorite was the week that I stood 2 duties (the Saturday before we left and the night before we left) because "You're single; it's only fair" and this was in a section of 54 other people (one of which stood duty during that week). The married thing sure does sound all good and great (and convenient if you are married), but then when you think about it, the married guy makes more and has a better quality of life- plus, he signed up for the job- he knew what he (or she) was getting into when they joined and got married- there is no reason they can't pull their weight like everyone else. I know that goes away from the female to female side of things, but it certainly doesn't help. It creates a resentment towards the married guy because they are using their spouse as an excuse to get out of work. And on another tangent, I am sure we have all heard of the wife that needs her husband to leave work to take her to get an ID renewed or go to a hospital appointment- when they are perfectly capable of doing it themselves. It can get to the point where you are rolling your eyes every time that one of your Marines asks to leave work for the afternoon- and you already know it is going to be an issue with his wife (and to be fair to me, I am usually right on that assumption).
So, when I get to an event where I have to interact with wives, I already have this idea who "military wives" are- in a nut shell. Then I get the stink eye, for no fault of my own- it is at this point when it becomes really easy to go ahead and just stereo-type military wives.
My little sister was an Army wife for a period of time, and let me tell you- she was the embodiment of my assumptions. She always felt so entitled- like the military owed her something because she was married to a soldier. There was always that 'something for nothing' attitude that I hated. The military is a job (a unique one, but still a job). If you look at almost every other job out there, you don't see raises for getting married- you don't see spouses getting hiring preference because of who they are married to- you don't see education programs that give money to the spouse (not to mention MORE than what the employee is actually getting as an employment benefit)- and I am sure there are lots more things that spouses get that most other spouses don't get.
Sorry that this is so long winded and has a couple tangents along the way- I am just trying to paint the picture of what I hear about and the perceptions that it creates. I am not saying that there is any fault, it is just the result of there not being any real interaction between the two groups. Also, I am not saying that every wife embodies these qualities, but there are plenty out there that do- at least, that is the idea that husbands are putting out there. I feel bad because this is so geared towards wives, but, to be honest, I don't really know any dependent husbands (all the husbands I know of are also in the military- which isn't a surprise since it is not exactly easy for female service members to meet men- many of us don't have large female social circles- so we don't really go out all that much- that and, I spent my first 4 years moving around a lot- which makes it hard to have a lot of close friends).
You know…I am a mil spouse and I couldn't agree with you more. I've commented many times on the entitlement nature of spouses and how more of them should work (especially if money is tight, regardless of if you have kids).
You are correct, there are single working mothers all around the world, now THAT is a tough job. Being married and taking care of kids and a house is NOT, it's chores and a part of life. I honestly think it's a fear of change, people like being able to send the kids to school and take care of chores or, my favorite that I read on Facebook all the time, take a nap. Heaven forbid you work normal hours, those nap times would be gone ;-) At that point it's not "I can't work' it's "I don't want to work"
I do work full time and I honestly get those same looks as you, and I've actually been told that I must not care about my family because I'm not available 24-7 to my husbands every beck and call and GASP "I let someone else raise my children" (yea it's called a teacher and guess what, they are "raising" every other kid in that class too).
It's sad that I've developed the same biases or that there have been enough unconnected experiences to force me to form this bias. I honestly don't blame you for the way you feel because I get it too and I usually HATE going to family functions…I only do it when I can tell it's important to my husband.
I've lost track now. We've moved onto bashing SAHMs? Really? This is silly. The tone of these comments are really becoming bitter and petty and jealous.
Honestly, if you were secure in your knowledge that you were doing what was right for YOUR family, and YOUR family alone you wouldn't feel the need to bash other women and other families who are also doing what is right for THEIR family – single, married, wives, servicewomen.
I'm also sad that you think it's the teacher's job to "raise" your kids. The teacher's job is to teach your child. Not raise him. Perhaps if we had more parents (working or not) who actually took responsibility for their kids, our schools would function a lot more effectively. But that's another post entirely.
Look folks. Stop worrying about who is doing what, and who's got it better, and who's got it worse and who is taking a nap. Take responsibility for yourself and your actions and don't worry about the rest.
The tone of these comments are really becoming bitter and petty and jealous.
good to know I am not alone
The stereotypes come from both sides. You have shown that you have felt stereotyped, and that you have also stereotyped others. I was with you on part of it, but one of your tangents took it a little far.
Your comments about spouse preference hiring bothered me. Those programs are there for a reason. Spouses often give up lucrative careers and have to do so over and over again, every PCS. There is real sacrifice. It may not be the same as that of the service member, but their sacrifices and losses should not be discounted. Each family is unique, and each family situation is different.
I hope you have the opportunity to meet and get to know some great spouses some day.
To say that the spouses are entitled and they go and spend exhorbitant amounts of money is just as stereotypical and prejudiced as saying that female service members are all after your husband.
As for being a stay at home mother, since when has that become a bad thing? If I were to work I would be spending more money on daycare or a nanny and commuting than I could possibly bring in. So that makes me selfish?
When I have to council my subordinates about money issues (because the unit gets a collections letter from a company that will send it to your work place… starcard) and it comes out that their wife has a habit of spending a lot of money, that is not a blind assumption- it is a story about things I have had to deal with.
When another subordinate comes to me and asks me for advice to talking to his wife about their finances because she is failing miserably and wants to be in charge of money and doesn't want to hear him out without going high and to the left- this is ANOTHER example of things that point to the fact that there are SOME issues with spouses and money.
Is it really surprising that money is a thing here- it is one of the things that ANY couple fights about (military or not).
I am not saying that being a stay at home mom is a bad thing, but if you and your husband are living pay check to pay check, it may be time to look at getting some type of income. Single mothers make it work. I never said you were selfish- I am saying that people justify living in a financially unstable life style with the excuse that they have kids don't really have an excuse.
"I think part of the problem lies in the fact that we (wives and female service members) don't intermingle, but we all hear things."
I completely agree. When all you have to go on is rumors and stereotypes, that foundation of distrust is already there and it just sets the female servicemember/wife relationship up for failure at the start.
But just as wives hear things about female servicemembers that are often unfair and degrading, you will hear things about wives that are also unfair and degrading. It's up to you to either buy into the stereotype and paint all spouses with the same brush, or to recognize that the troublemakers are always the ones you hear about. You're not going to hear about the wives who take care of their families and do what they need to do. I don't agree with a lot of your opinions about the "entitlement" of military wives and you seem to have a low level of respect for us in general, but I hope you will learn to have a more open mind.
But remember, some of what I hear is because it is part of the business of being a mentor- which is part of my job description. Some of it is just the stuff that guys say to each other when their wives aren't around. Whatever it is, I am the only female around- the men out number me more than 10 to 1- so when I hear things that are just men talking about things that their wives to that frustrate them or the skank they picked up the night before- I am hearing it from about 10 times more people than wives since they just hear it from their husband (who only knows a couple females at work).
Maybe I don't have respect for military wives, but I wouldn't deny it- I don't respect a lot of people (men-women-servicemembers-civilians). Respect is earned- the best I can do is just keep my mouth shut when I have to be around spouses (and others that I don't respect). You may find this sad or heartless of me, but there are actually very few people that I have a lot of respect for. That is just how I am- a bit antisocial/jaded/and frustrated with people in general (no faith in humanity).
Have you considered that your command spouses give you dirty looks because their husbands complain to them about you? You said you were anti-social, jaded, frustrated with people in general and don't respect a lot of people… if that conveys to your co-workers, it doesn't seem like a stretch that your name would come up in a venting session or two. Just a thought.
that could be possible, however, I don’t usually speak so frankly when the topic isn’t brought up. I work in a quazi professional environment and I usually have a lot of work to do- I am not spending my days screwing off and goofing around. If someone asks for my perspective, I will tell them (HONESTLY), and they typically understand, if not agree.
The typical male complaints that I hear (about female service members) are usually along the lines of- females are skanks- females are lazy- females are fat- females are ******- females are usless at their jobs… the list goes on and on, but you rarely hear someone complaining about a female who pulls her weight, plays by the rules, is a team player, doesn’t expect special treatment, doesn’t try to exploit the fact that she is female, and/or is damn good at her job. It may surprise you to know that I can get along with just about anyone when I need to (just because I wouldn’t want to hang out with them in my normal life, doesn’t meant I can’t be civil) and don’t have any people that really hate me in my office (which is good because it is a relatively small office and it would be incredibly awkward if there were such personality issues). They all can (and have) approached me with their questions or concerns and are all open to the things that I have to say. I am sure we all get on eachothers nerves from time to time, but there has never been anything bad enough to impact the work dynamic.
I am kind of surprised at the responses that I am getting. I was trying to provide perspective on some of the reasons that there could be tension between the two groups- not wife bash. I wasn’t just throwing around bad things that some people think about wives- I was giving real world examples of some of the issues that I have come across (not heard about through the rumor mill). It isn’t really a stereotype when I am not saying that everyone is like that
“Also, I am not saying that every wife embodies these qualities, but there are plenty out there that do- at least, that is the idea that husbands are putting out there.”
Maybe I should have led with that since people didn’t make it that far (I do have a habit of over explaining- especially when I am trying to be very careful about what I am saying so that people don’t take it the wrong way).
Hate me if you want, but don’t fault me for my perspective. If you don’t like it, don’t read it.
I'm not faulting you for your perspective. I am glad to have it. My comment wasn't meant to sound catty. I really do believe it could be a reason why spouses give you dirty looks. No matter how professional you are or how well you all get along at work, it's naive to think your co-workers don't go home and complain about you (and every other co-worker, male or female) on occasion… especially if you are the person they feel they can approach with questions or concerns. I can't imagine you've responded to every single question or concern with the answer they wanted to hear, right? And while our husbands are forced to move on and forget for the sake of the mission, we aren't. So, at the next command function, a wife still angry for her husband will probably give you a cold shoulder or an icy glare. It has nothing to do with you being female or attractive.
I really do hope you open your mind to at least consider this as an option.
Considered… I am sure that I do get mentioned on rare occasions, however, I don't interact with 90% of the unit other than rare occasions, so the odds of them mentioning me would be slim- so why would their spouses also give dirty looks? That is my point- they don't know who I am. Also, for spouses that don't know why I look like, how do they know to give me dirty looks before being introduced? And then there are the ones around base- there are ~100,000 people on base- I only work with about 200 of them- I still get dirty looks at the PX or commissary- not from everyone, but there are still some- I doubt they all have heard about me… if they have, that is impressive!
Response to Mil_Female
That's funny that you make such bias comment because I am one of those wives that kept my husband from going into debt. I am the one who increase his savings and btw I don't have a job now because he don't want me to. We are doing well financially, and I am almost finish with my degree. So your comments about the spouses serve no purpose and it is really offensive. My husband sits here everyday and tells me if it wasn't for me he would have nothing!!!! Instead of making harsh bias comments you need to worry about your own issues because you seem to be the one with the problem. Now I can sit here and complain about military females and go by what my husband say about yall which is not nice at all. But, instead I am going to continue doing me and what is best for my family, just as what you should be doing!!!!
Again, I will keep referring back:
“Also, I am not saying that every wife embodies these qualities, but there are plenty out there that do- at least, that is the idea that husbands are putting out there.”
I am not saying all are equal- not nearly. I am just saying that I have had to deal with the fallout of other people’s relationships because it is part of the job. I am not making up random stuff to make people mad- I am giving REAL WORLD EXAMPLES THAT I WAS INVOLVED IN BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE WORKED WITH OR FOR ME.
Just like I can’t fault anyone for saying that there was a female service member who did any number of terrible things- it happens- I won’t deny that- I have seen female service members do bad things and I have seen husbands disappearing into a hotel room with a Thai woman of questionable values (in Thailand). I am not saying any one group is any better than the others- just different. I was giving my perspective based on factual events, not rumors- then I explained that it is hard to ignore all the bad that you hear when they give you the stink eye (this also applies to the ones that I pass around base that I have no affiliation to). Am I saying that they are bad people? NO. Am I suggesting that they can’t think what they want? NO! They have every right to hate me as much as they want and choose to dislike female service members. Yeah- it is a little petty and silly when they don’t know me or who I am (in some cases)- but that doesn’t mean it isn’t their right! In the same hand, it is my right to notice that they are all being catty at me for no good reason other than some rumors that they have heard or isolated incidents that they have been involved with.
They have the right to tell me that I have no business being a service member if they want; that doesn’t make them right.
Funny you should complain about single soldiers having to pick up slack all the time. Hubby usually volunteers to work on holidays so his single soldiers can go home to their often far-away family and I am just fine with that. I get together with the wifes/husbands of the other people who work with him and we bring the big holiday meal to them. He's working Medevac, so there's a chance his crew has to run out during dinner, but I still enjoy hanging around and sharing a meal.
Sadly enough, there is a lot of stereotyping going on in your comment and it just deepens the rift between spouses and AD members. Yes, some spouses can be difficult, just as some female service members can be difficult. We all need to make an effort to get along…
*Got "why can't we be friends" going on in my head now*
How many times do I have to say that I am not saying that all are the same???!!!
I am just saying- it has happened more times than I can count that I have heard leadership say, “Well the single guys can take care of it” – that isn’t the fault of the married individual. There was one time that the unit had a whole bunch of single service members (myself included) go out early on a Saturday to do manual labor and set up a family day- then when the event started, they shooed the offensive single people away (tell us that we had to stay in uniform and couldn’t leave base all day) then, when it was over, had to come back and clean up after them. This is a leadership issue- not the fault of the married guys, but somewhere someone got the idea that single people have nothing better to do than serve the married guys on the weekend- but only as long as the married people don’t have to see us.
What is the fault of the individual (I didn’t say all married service members) is when they use their spouse as an excuse (and I am not referring to legitimate emergencies either) to get out of doing work- I shouldn’t have to pick up anyone’s slack because they don’t feel like working and said that they need to go with their wife to get a new ID. I am find with being a team player when it is an emergency- I haven’t had any to date, but I know that if I do, someone will be there for me (or I will work longer hours to make sure nothing goes undone).
I am just saying, it is a weak move and creates resentment and nobody should be gaffing off work for BS excuses (and single people have them too).
As for your stereotyping comment, if you had read my whole statement- you would see that I never said that every wife was like that (if fact I said the opposite- “Also, I am not saying that every wife embodies these qualities, but there are plenty out there that do- at least, that is the idea that husbands are putting out there.”) it is just that those are the ones I hear about from the married people I work with (about their own wives)- and of course the messes that impact the work place.
It IS a touchy subject, and those of us who try to keep it real and make it easier for our soldiers instead of harder, see all the stuff that is going on around us and don't want to be associated with the skanks and gold diggers and so on. So forgive me for defending myself, I know it gets old, but sometimes I feel all we ever hear about ARE the spouses that are horrible. Just like you defend your position and the fact that you are not one of those female soldiers who will sleep around with every guy in your vicinity, we all have mentioned that we know awesome female soldiers. As you stated way above, you'd be offended if someone came up to you and said they don't think YOU would sleep with their husbands, well, as everything else, this goes for both sides, too. Please know that I respect you and your job, even if our opinions may differ at some points.
Oh and as for the glares, I think sometimes we as women get very self-conscious and almost EXPECT to be treated in a different way and misinterpret what we see and hear. When I run into female aviators here, I tend to wonder how life is for them, whether they are treated equally to their male counterparts, and -like I do with males as well – wonder what made them decide to join the forces. But instead of asking, I tend to just look, often feeling a tad intimidated due to earlier encounters that I described above, and the. I end up just looking, not speaking. They might mistake that as me "glaring at them"…solo, me be we should just smile at each other in the future and not assume the worst :)
Solo = sooo… Silly auto correct!
Petra…
You seem to be sincere with a postive attitude. I wish I could meet other spouses like yourself. I agree with your comments. Another issue I see is not only with the female soldiers and the spouse, but spouses with spouses. It seems like the problem is females period no matter who it is!!! No one is really friendly with anyone these days. I think that so many things has happen that cause this. I think it's just people are afraid of getting hurt so therefore they have a problem trusting people.
I muse about making friends quite a bit. The older I get, the more set in my ways I am, and it's tempting to just give in to the first encounter judgment and the categorizing of the people we meet. I think we all do it to some extent, whether it is something like "she came in a sports car, I bet she's spoiled" or "she's so beautiful, she wouldn't wanna hang out with plain old me" and so on. But we empower ourselves if we manage to look past that first thought and welcome people with that clean slate. Sure, I still meet horrible people who just use others for whatever reason, but I also meet friends in people that I never thought I could be friends with just based on that first thought. I do hope you get too meet some wonderful people on your journey through life, and if you're ever nearby (I'm currently at Ft.Rucker, Al) let me know, I'm always up for a coffee ;)
"I shouldn't have to pick up anyone's slack because they don't feel like working and said that they need to go with their wife to get a new ID."
I am not coming on here to attack you or your views, but I do want to set one thing straight. Married soldiers are not making weak excuses when they have to go get their spouse an ID card. DEERS does not deal with spouses without a POA. So either way, your solider is going to be out of work: either to get a POA or to get a new ID. This is something, honestly, I would love to do without the hubby, but unfortunately, I can't. (We are in the ARMY)
Thanks for pointing that out, RMMac. This was my biggest gripe with the whole comment. I DO NOT ask my husband to leave work for trivial stuff, but perhaps my definition of trivial is different that the commenter's definition. The military requires me to have a current ID and the process for obtaining an ID without your sponsor physically present is really inconvenient, and you're nearly sure to have missed a crossed t or dotted i and need to return again. Bring your sponsor with you? No problems, speedy service, new ID in no time.
As for doctor's appointments, I believe that both parents should attend as many well-child and specialty appointments as possible. If an active duty service member is a parent, they should not be judged by their co-workers for wanting to participate in their child's life. Perhaps a wife has health issues that require her spouse's presence at her appointments but they don't feel like sharing their personal business with the entire shop.
I believe that a good co-worker would encourage attendance at doctor's appointments, parent-teacher conferences, and sporting events. Unless you are in combat, being in the military isn't supposed to require your full attention 24 hours a day. You need to trust the people with whom you work to make adult decisions about when their personal life can and should take precedence over their work life. Very rarely are these people "slacking," but rather maintaining a reasonable work-life balance that will benefit the military in the long run.
Whew – got a bit carried away there. And you know what I noticed? By the time I got to the end, I wasn't talking about males and females anymore, I was talking about servicemembers and their spouses. Which is what it should be about anyway, right? I'm curious if the commenter has similar issues with her command's male spouses, or if she only sees problems with female spouses.
I take issue with the statement that wives "knew what they were getting into". That's BS. There is no way to fully grasp the demands of the military on a marriage until you're in it. I'm 37, not 18, I have multiple college degrees and had a long and very successful career until I married into the military and I was staggered by how difficult it can be to be a military spouse. It's like walking through a time warp into the 1950s. I had no experience with the military at all when I married my soldier and not all wives are 18 year old military brats/army chasers/bar skanks looking for a paycheck.
Female Marine perspective (I know that a lot of my thoughts may come off as harsh- I know this isn't every wife out there and I apologize if you are offended by this)…
I was commenting to my boss about this same topic earlier this week when I got an e-mail about a unit Christmas party- I saw that it was on a Friday night and commented that it would have been better to do it during the week because most people would rather not stick around until 9pm Friday night when the party was over (especially with an hour commute). He said that Fridays are generally better for people with families because there are a lot of school commitments during the week.
I can't remember exactly how it fit, but I ended up making a comment about how I didn't like to be at unit family functions any longer than needed because I usually get dirty looks from wives. I felt really self conscious saying it, since I know I am not all that and a bag of potato chips, but it was the honest truth- and this article just reinforces that it wasn't just something that I made up in my head.
I think part of the problem lies in the fact that we (wives and female service members) don't intermingle, but we all hear things. Things that I hear that don't give girlfriends and spouses a good name…
- Single guys who just screw anything that they can, talk about it at work, then call the females they associate with stupid for any kind of feelings that they have- or desire to get to know the guy.
- Single guys that are getting married for the money to some bar skank (or stripper) that they met a couple months ago (when there are men who are objectifying women- it is easy to lump all men into that category- especially when the objectifying men are good friends with the married ones).
- The wives that run around crying about how being a military wife is the hardest job in the military (I always found that to be a but insulting and if you want to go that route- I would say that single military mother is the hardest job in the military).
- The wives who don't have kids, don't want to go to school, don't want to get a job, spend excessive amounts of money, and then have the gall to complain to their husbands that they are bored and that he isn't doing his part in the marriage because he is gone at work too much.
- There are the men who come in and talk about how they go to swingers parties/group sex parties- and sometimes you even get invited to join (cringe).
- There are the married men who constantly make perverted comments and the ones that talk about how they would like to "F*** the $***" out of some chick.
- The men who finds out he has been cheated on.
(To be continued)
"So, when I get to an event where I have to interact with wives, I already have this idea who "military wives" are- in a nut shell. Then I get the stink eye, for no fault of my own- it is at this point when it becomes really easy to go ahead and just stereo-type military wives. "
Perhaps this attitude is coming out LOUD AND CLEAR when you're around military wives, and it is precisely WHY you get the stink eye.
Not really. I have the tact to keep my mouth shut (at least in person) and find a circle of co-workers to talk to. I am careful not to be giving them the cold shoulder, but I am also hiding in my social comfort zone- the people that I work with daily. I am generally quiet (even in my social circle) and a lot of people assume that means judgmental, when it really means I'm thinking and paying attention to those around me. It wouldn't be the first time that it happened.
Plus, it is not me projecting onto them because I have gotten some pretty nasty e-mails and texts from wives who I have never met but thought it would be appropriate to contact me because they found my number in their husband's phone or they heard my name and that I was a female and decided to e-mail me (and it isn't really that hard to figure out government e-mails… first.last@domain.mil). I am not sure how I could have projected these stereotypes on them without meeting them.
I generally accept it as an agree to disagree situation.
you've got a chip on your shoulder the size of a military wife.
That one made me LOL
That one could be pretty huge… too far??? probably… SORRY, I couldn’t help it. I suppose it could also be itty bitty too. I am not calling you fat or anyone fat… and I checked with a co-worker before I posted… he laughed (and he is married)
Depends on the size of your shoulders :P
As a mil spouse and a soldier, I feel like I have to say something. For a little background, let me clarify: my husband is active duty, I’m National Guard.
I have never been treated differently by the spouses I am friends with. They ask a lot of questions (what’s its like being a woman in the military, etc), but that’s fine, I love talking about it. Other spouses are not so nice. These are usually on the guard side of it, but also occasionally on the active side. I try to not let it get to me, but it can be very hurtful and confusing. I really don’t understand it. I’m a nice person, even if someone dislikes me. I was raised to be polite to everyone, no matter what.
I’m not trying to make it seem like every woman I come into contact with is awful and judgey. I have met so many wonderful women, and a few of them I consider my other family. However, the bad apples always stick out.
So how do we fix it? First, I think it’s important to have a trusting and respectful relationship with your spouse. I trust my husband, and it doesn’t bother me that he works with other women and may be friends with them. With that being said, I think everyone who wants or needs it should take advantage of the family counseling the military offers. I can’t remember what it’s called off the top of my head, but I know that after this deployment, we’re going to do it.
Secondly, maybe those of us involved in our various FRGs need to start suggesting a ladies night out or some sort of women-only function that includes wives and female soldiers. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a party; it could be a book club or a meeting, just something where we all meet up and talk. Maybe if given the opportunity to meet and get to know each other, this rift can be repaired?
That's a great idea! Our former FRG president here was actually an active duty female Sailor and a lot of the wives ended up hanging out with her. I didn't think about it before, but that's a really good way to break down some of the walls.
That may be the problem- the trusting and respectful relationships with spouses (I am talking about the men-children I work with- which doesn't apply to everyone's spouse)- that isn't my problem- that isn't my issue- and I am not interested in their husbands. period. I sometimes get dragged into the tense relationships- it's not my fault- I didn't do anything more than have a job where someone's husband happens to also work. I get frustrated and resentful when I get dragged into it (it isn't always the wives either- I can't even count how many times I have been propositioned by a male marine who is married- the answer is no- it never wasn't no and I didn't do anything to suggest that the answer could even be maybe).
I don't want to have anything to do with the men I work with- I steer clear of military men- I have seen all of their worst habits- I have heard too many personal stories about them. They may be just like every other guy out there, but the difference is, I haven't heard all the bad stuff about non-military men.
Also- If my family readiness officer suggested something like a female only with spouses function- I would laugh in her face (which would make me feel really bad because she really is the sweetest woman you will ever meet). I have a life of my own and no interest in hanging around with the spouses of the men I work with when I could be doing things that I actually want to do. It is bad enough the few times that they have had "female meetings" with the females in the unit- nothing will make you feel singled out more than something like that. I hate that because inevitably, the men assume that we are getting some kind of special treatment- not the persona I want to be associated with. I work hard and I pull my own weight- and when the people I work with think of me (men or women) that is the only thing I want them to associate with!
again, your attitude is what is causing the women you meet to give you the cold shoulder. It has nothing to do with military wives. You'd get the same response elsewhere. You think you're better than everyone else. This isn't about us, maybe you need to take this to some other blog.
Thank you so much for telling me about who I am as a person and how I feel.
I am so sorry that you are offended by someone who is strong willed and willing to speak their mind, even when some people (you) may not like it. I never believed in candy coating things (with a few exceptions). I expect people to be honest with me, and I am honest with them.
Perhaps you think that women should be seen and not heard- they should be soft spoken- they should think of nothing other than being friends and getting along no matter what- they should be weak— If I were the embodiment of the 50's housewife stereotype, I would get walked all over! In order to work in a male dominated organization, you can't be afraid to open your mouth. You can't always be looking to please everyone. Some times you even need to be an a$$ hole. These are things that make a female excel (or at least keep up with the pack) in this business- if you don't adapt, you will be walked on and get pushed to the side. This isn't a popularity contest- it is a job!
Perhaps you don't like that I don't want to be pulled away from work to be with people's wives so that they like me. Someone's spouse liking me or not liking me does not have anything to do with the job I have. It is not my job to cater to the emotional needs of people's spouses- I would venture to guess that many people would not appreciate being told that they HAVE to take time from work or personal life to go hang out with their co-worker's spouses. It has nothing to do with hating a certain group of people or a feeling of superiority, it is about not having the interest in being forced into an awkward social situation with people I have no specific interest in meeting- I signed up to do a job- which I am happy to do- not to extend my social circle.
I never said I was any better than anyone. I don't know why you are thinking that (maybe you aren't taking the time to read all of what I have to say- or maybe you think I am saying that all military wives are bad). I never claimed to be perfect- I merely expressed my perception that was based on nearly a decade of hearing men complain about their wives and issues- not rumors and exaggeration.
As a wife and a female service member, I'm on both sides of this.
My husband is on submarines, which are getting females for the first time in a matter of months. There are quite a few wives who are worried about this, but I'm not worried one bit (you can see my personal opinion here: http://wifeofasailor.com/2010/04/29/women-on-subm…. My opinion on that topic is the same as here: it takes two to tango. You can't have an affair if one of them refuses.
I, personally, have never had problems with the wives of the men I serve with but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
I don't doubt that there are examples of both sides to "prove" a case. But I don't think that is the norm either way. However, we all just need to put our big girl panties on and deal.
I have been friends with many of my husband's co-workers, male and female. We've taken them out to dinner, had them over for holidays, birthdays and BBQs and I've never felt threatened by any of them. I have no reason not to trust my husband and so I don't worry about him cheating with a female he works with. In the event he ever does cheat on me, I would prefer for it to come as a complete shock than to spend my marriage being suspicious or worrying about something that may never happen.
It's funny how we do all this talking about military spouses not being friendly. I have been to many events or whatever with my husband and military females have not been so nice either!!! Instead, they stare at me when I am with my husband… what is all that about???? I see no one talking about this. But, anyways who cares!!! Females are females and that is all females is good at doing is hating on each other. This is what it is all about. If you speak to me I will speak to you but I won't kiss no one butt.
I am good at lots of other things other than hating females. Actually, I like to think of myself as an equal opportunity hater. Stupid doesn't discriminate, so neither do I!
Here are some other things I am good at…
-My job
-Driving
-Getting people to open up and talk
-Killing time
-Finding information
-School
-Grammar (Females are- not females is- I will just assume that you didn't proof real- I don't usually either)
As far as nobody coming up to you to talk, I don't know. I don't want to be at unit events, and don't stay longer than I have to. Perhaps it is because nobody knows you and your husband never bothered to introduce you to anyone!
Gotta say to that one, if I waited for my husband to introduce me, I'd be one lonely gal lol…I usually have to be the one to stretch out my hand and say "hi, I'm Petra," at which point he usually scrambles to introduce the people around us lol. Like I said before, I think both sides need to learn to open up a bit and put aside the stereotypes, no matter how many times those stereotypes have proven to be right with people we meet…
Gotta tell one more though, not as an attack on you or anyone, but one of my first encounters with a female soldier went about like this: then boyfriend introduces us, we chat for a while, boyfriend, thinking I have someone to talk to now, wanders off (it was my first "outing" within the unit and I was nervous…) and I look after him a sec, turn around and find her gone, too. So I wander around, looking for a friendly face, run into BF again, colleague joins us once more, he wanders off, same thing happens. Curiouser and curiouser. I still tried to keep an open mind, so whenever I met her afterwards, I'd chat with her, and she'd be wonderful when BF was around, but would barely look at me when he wasn't. Eventually BF turned into hubby, and she invited me to come out for a girls night and I agreed and she said she'd call me (husband was on rotation and I was home alone and happy to get out)….you can guess what happened – she never called. For some reason she was only ever friendly to me when my husband was around, and I saw her be like that with others as well, so what else was I to think other than her just wanting to impress my husband and not really giving a hoot about me – or any of the spouses. I readily admit that this particular experience had me jaded for a while, and I was (perhaps overly) cautious when introduced to female coworkers…
I mostly got over it though, and everyone I meet has a clean slate to begin with ;)
Replying to Mil_female
I am good at alot of things too what is your point??!!!! I am educated, great mom and love my family. I have a right to express my views and personally I don't care to hear any more of your opinions. You are one sided and complaining about spouses is not going to get you anywhere. You seem like a bitter female who needs to mind her own business. Has it occur to you that if these so called soldiers who talk to you about their wives are full of it??? Why haven't they left their spouse yet if they was so unhappy??? This actually came from my husband mouth when he looked at your comments!!! So get a life since you claim to have one.
And I quote, "Females are females and that is all females is good at doing is hating on each other." The use of the word all (definition: the whole of, everything) implies that females are not good at anything else.
They aren't soldiers, actually, they are Marines! Some have left their wives, while others have stuck it out generally because of kids, but others because of their belief in the vows they took and the institution of marriage.
I don't care if they are soldiers or marines!!!!! They are still men and alot of men sit and complain like kids and I have watch many do nothing about it. I had men complain to me about their wives and you know what I say??? Tell it to your spouse not me!!! I am not the type of female that enjoys misery or drama. Your response still showed me nothing other than a female who has no life and enjoys drama. Thanks but no thanks for your response, do better next time. Do you want their husbands or something???? I am sure if you ever get a man of your own to marry you, they will complain about you too behind your back. Just remember that is what alot of them do and sometimes it is because they have a motive. This is commen sense!!!
For everyone who wrote, "I don't mind. I trust my husband. It takes two to tango." blah blah. Of course that is true. BUT if you had the choice, would you prefer your husband be on a ship with no women for his 6+ month deployment? Be honest. Of course you would.
No, because women bring something to the table. I do trust my husband. On his last deployment, some opportunistic skank tried to get him in bed. She was married, herself. She heard (because he keeps his command informed) we were having some problems. It sucks that the military has to be involved in some of the most intimate details of our personal lives, because it does affect work. I guess she thought it was time to pounce. We're fine now, but it was a rough time, that was a little harder because of a deployment. We have a stronger marriage now, than at anytime in our lives, in part because we were able to reflect on the good parts of our marriage while going through a downturn. They happen, even in good, strong marriages.
I'm not surprised he said thanks, but no thanks to the skank. If he hadn't, we may have gotten divorced. He didn't tell me who it was, probably because I would have had to tell the b***h off, without regard to rank. He works with some incredible women that I am proud to know. There have been a few lazy ones who have tried to sleep their way to the top, or marry out. The lazy dbag men have far outnumbered any "problem" females, but that is because there are more of them. I think if the number of females to males were equal, we would all see that some people are just bad at their jobs, and/or personal lives. I don't want to discount anyone because of the bad apple that is inevitably in the bunch.
No, I wouldn't. What I care about is that the people with him take their jobs seriously and have his back. I'm thinking of two Sailors at our current command right now– a male and a female- and if I had to choose between them, I'd send the female without hesitation.
so what do you think happens when he hits port? Do you think there aren't women in those cities? Get a grip. I've been deployed on a ship and to land and let me tell you if someone is going to cheat then it doesn't matter if there are women on the ship. The people who cheat are looking to get laid and will if they get the opportunity. OR there is alcohol involved, and if your spouse fits that category then it will happen if they are home at the bar or in port. On the other hand I knew men who never left the ship in port even to get a burger. They tried so hard to appease their wife and make her feel better…did she believe he stayed on 24/7 – no. did their marriage still have problems – yes. Was all that unrelieved stress good for him or his shipmates depending on him – no.
It is not perfect – things do happen. BUT, WHY is it that we live in 2011 and the woman is still to blame for everything as a she-devil – i do NOT understand.
The ship comment is moot for all of us whose husbands don't work on ships…but like others above posted, I don't mind what gender, race, age, or sexual preference my husbands colleagues are/have, as long as they're good soldiers and pull their weight.
I LOVE this article. THANK YOU! I'm a female F-16 pilot so everywhere I've been, I'm always the only girl in the squadron. They say that the guys are the ones I have to prove myself to, but that's not the case–it's always the wives who are tougher on me than anyone else. Thanks!