You know the rules. You may even know them better than most. But you’re not a servicemember. You’re the servicemember’s spouse. Are you allowed to correct another servicemember in public when he is out of regulation?
We’ve all been there: you’re out running errands around town and run into a servicemember whose conduct is so far out of those regulations your spouse is constantly nitpicking over that you just can’t stop staring. Hey, that uniform is a matter of pride, after all (that’s why some find uniform purses so tackalicious) — and the dude that is wearing it in front of you is dissing it in one way or another. Maybe he’s wearing it all wrong (like the JROTC cadets I saw in Army ACUs yesterday with rolled-up sleeves! Silly children). Maybe he is drunk off his rocker and making a scene — instead of conducting himself the way the uniform demands.
Or maybe, like the instance noticed by our friend over at USMC Life, he is wearing it in the wrong setting.
Last night, right before I headed off to bed, USMC Life put this question on their Facebook page:
I saw a Marine in his cammies out in town, picking up his child from the same place my daughter attends. I’m not a Marine, but it felt weird seeing him out (like my pride was hurt) knowing this wasn’t authorized. Should I have said something, even though I am a spouse of a Marine?
When I got up this morning there were more than 100 comments giving this blogger a piece of their mind. Some said “yes.” Most said “NO.”
The Marine Corps’ rules about where and when the uniform is to be worn are more stringent than those of others services, such as the Army. For example, according to this regulation, the uniform may only be worn in a civilian setting during a “bonafide emergency” or in a vehicle to and from duty. They are allowed to wear it in a drive-thru, but they are not allowed to run other errands in it. Members of other services like the Army, on the other hand, can wear the uniform immediately after duty hours to almost anywhere under most circumstances.
So when the blogger saw the Marine picking up his child, she knew it was out of regulation. And since we all know (and have had to wait a long time for our husbands in the past thanks to) the rules, she wanted to say something.
I can see where the desire to do that comes from. Once Upon a Time, when I was pregnant, hormonal, exhausted and ready to hurl at any moment, I witnessed pair of MALE soldiers drive into the commissary parking lot, pull into the “expectant mother” spot, get out of their car and attempt to saunter confidently into the store. I say “attempt” because they never made it. I yelled “EXCUSE ME — WHICH OF YOU IS AN ‘EXPECTANT MOTHER?!’” and watched them do a walk of shame back to their car and move it to another spot (ha!).
Victory! Justice for all! Etc.
I won’t lie — it felt pretty rad to be on the right side of the rules (even though, technically, no parking spots other than “general officer” and handicap are enforceable under post regulations). I felt like Ruler of the World putting the smack down on those little dudes who thought they were going to steal a parking spot from someone who felt as equally disgusting as I did.
But was it the right thing to do? Was it my place? Probably not.
It was a pretty safe assumption to say that neither one of those dudes were pregnant. But I’m having a hard time coming up with another example in which I can say that I will, beyond a shadow of a doubt, know all of the circumstances around the situation to the point that I can correct someone I don’t know for doing something we assume to be wrong. Think of all the stories you’ve heard about amputee servicemembers with injuries hidden under long pants parking legally in handicap spots, only to be called out by a well meaning community member. You do not want to be the person who takes the walk of shame after the wounded warrior shows you his injury.
But that’s not even the biggest reason for a spouse not to say something to an out of regulation servicemember.
The biggest reason, in my personal opinion, is that you are not the boss of him/her. This isn’t a life or death situation. This isn’t a “see something, say something” terrorist watch. This is a regulation. Roll with it.
What do you think? Should a spouse correct an out of line servicemember?
About Amy Bushatz
Comments
Our comment system is being persnickedy this morning. This was left on Facebook by Danielle: Amy, I tried to post this on the SpouseBUZZ site, but it wouldn't let me. I guess I'm too long-winded…I think that it was perfectly right for you, the expectant mother, to say something to the soldiers about their erroneous parking decision. However, as a veteran and military spouse, I would definitely disagree with a military spouse correcting a service member on their uniforms or conduct. I will admit that it drives me absolutely nuts when a service member disrespectfully goes against regulation, but as much as I am SOO tempted to correct them, it is not a spouse's place to do so.
Honestly, I don't know that a correction or reprimand by a spouse would mean much to a service member anyways. Though you may know the regulations better than that service member does, a spouse's words simply do not hold the weight of another service member.
Having said all that, in certain situations, I think that it could be done tactfully. If, say, the service member is a very young and obviously new service member (he or she has the E1-E4 rank on), I think that a spouse could very kindly say something to them letting them know that (1) you, the spouse, have been in the military for a very long time and know how things go and (2) you are just looking out for their welfare and don't want them to get into trouble with a senior-ranking service member.
I agree with Danielle-I too am a veteran and military spouse, I would definitely disagree with a military spouse correcting a service member on their uniforms or conduct. In the example of the JROTC students wearing their sleeves rolled up, if it's the entire group, what you may not know is that commanders can dictate that-they can dictate the "duty uniform of the day," based on the weather, the type of duties being performed, location of the duty, etc. Changes to the "duty" uniform can include rolling up the sleeves, unblowsing or opening up the pant legs, wearing sneakers with the uniform, wearing extra items with the uniform such as a helmet or safety glasses, etc. You, as an outsider, will not be privy to this commander's directive, so to speak up to a group, or even an individual in these cases may well make you look the fool. As for the marine picking up the child, I understand that it may be a reg violation, but it's not your business. You don't know what that marine's day was like-we all know (those of us who are parents) the pressure to pick up a child from daycare when we're running late-maybe the marine didn't have time to change. It's not your business. If a higher ranking marine questions it, that marine will explain it-and may or may not have a good excuse, but it's not your business.
In the case of the assuredly not pregnant dudes, that's not a uniform violation-that's a civil matter, and I would say it depends on the circumstances, which I would gage based on the setting, who, what, etc. I would likely say something to those dudes as well, though, I would not say something to someone who parks in a handicapped spot since we can't see with our eyes all disabilities.
Just because they are out of the service I think that a spouse or even a passing pedestrian cause all member should wear their uniform with pride and they should always want their uniforms up to regulation to show who they represent
I could not have said this better Courtney! I feel exctly the same way and I have only been a military spouse for 2.5 years.
You have so much pride – how about you get off your ass and serve? I hate women that think they are somebody special because they are shagging a military person. You are so up in the pride, etc you need to serve yourself. Your husband's accomplishments are just that – his. Get your own.
Debbie, do you realize how insulting it is that you think other spouses sit around doing nothing and DON'T have their own careers and accomplishments. This article wasn't about accomplishments and I didn't read where anyone was trying to take credit for another's accomplishments. Many spouses have fulfilling careers, some in the military, some not. Please don't assume because we are spouses of AD members that we need to derive our worth and value from our husbands' jobs. However, my 21 years (and still counting) of being the spouse of an AD officer does mean, that in some instances, I DO have more knowledge and experience on a subject than an Active Duty member. The article was debating whether or not it is right to share such knowledge. I think the collective answer was that it depends on the situation.
Just as a junior officer would be remiss in assuming he/she "knows" more than a NCO just because the other person is an enlisted member. Any junior military member would be remiss in assuming that a spouse doesn't know what is going on, or what is correct in a given situation just because the person is a spouse. I'm assuming you are a junior military member because anyone who has been in for awhile knows this to be true.
Simply ask any SNCO, field grade, or GO, and they will tell you that they frequently go to their spouse for advice.
p.s. I don't think I'm special simply because I'm shagging (I just love that term!) my AD member, although it is a great benefit of being married. I'm special because I'm an intelligent, educated, loving, fun and hopefully great mom, wife, confidant, and friend. (Who also holds two advance degrees and has plenty of corporate experience.) I hope you find you your own self worth in something other than your job, because that won't always be with you. I would encourage you not to judge others by their career choice but by the content of their character.
I am latching onto the E1-E4 part of the comment from Danielle on FB. As a spouse of someone who just finished 6 years of being the First Sergeant, can I just point out the Officers are also far out of regs sometimes.
As to the question – I would never tell someone they were out of regs. And the Marine may have had an emergency in the immediate family and that is why HE was the one picking up his daughter at daycare. Or he said heck with it and went straight from his deployment homecoming to pick up his daughter.
I used to work with an 0-6 that was clueless when it came to the uniform. Brilliant at what he did (which is why he made 0-6). His aide used to "fix" what was wrong when he saw him.
How about this! These spouses should get an education and a real job with real knowledge and correct people in that field! These women have WAY to much time on their hands and should mind their own business
RIGHT ON. I AGREE
Couldn't agree more! Nothing worse than a wife trying to wear her husband's rank.
I believe that the biggest reason for not saying anything is that you do not know why the service member was there to pick up the child. Somehting may have happened that required him to have to pick up the child and therefore it could very well have been an emergency. What would have happened if he ahd not gone to get the child? It also could have been a last minute thing, so there was no time to change. School dismissal, or day care pick up happen at a specific time and depending on the child’s age, mom or dad better be on time. There are many shades of gray when it comes to why a service member might be in the wrong uniform for the location where they find themseves
Although it may seem annoying especially when you know they are just plain wrong in doing so. It is important to remember they earned the right to wear that uniform. Even though I am a pretty awesome spouse, it is in no way my place to correct them. I wouldn’t say something unless it was some sort of circumstance that immediately harmed the well being or safety of my family or me.
Even if the Marine was a lower rank it still does not give a spouse, a civilian, the right to correct them. It really bothers me the author of that post on USMC Life was so quick to judge based on what she saw, rather than what she might not know. For all we know there COULD be an emergency that has taken place, and he had to pick up his child. Should the child have to wait for Daddy to change into civies? Sorry, but I don't think that's fair to the child. No one knows what's happened except the Marine and his spouse. He's not going out to a bar in his uniform, he is not doing anything that is disrespecting to the Corps…he's picking up his child. This is why a lot of us, MILSpouses, get a bad rap; people like that author butt into other peoples business when they need to mind their own.
Exactly. Maybe the emergency had to do with his child, and that's why he was there in uniform!
All I care about is what I see. any nebulous thing I don't know does NOT matter until I discover it. He has an emergency? Show me! I stopped a commander once for talking on his cellphone as he was walking ( legal now, wasn't then). He "had an emergency". His house was in an area with a hurricane. I sympathize, but that was no excuse for violating the ban on walking and talking in uniform. He was furious, but my chief and divo backed me up when he brought it to my CO. The captain said "all you had to do was stop walking and my sailor would have left you alone to finish your conversation". Instead, he had a uniform infraction chit routed up through his CO as well as the base CO, and so both of them knew he was being unprofessional.
You are a douche. You should grow up and learn to control your childish instinct to “get even” with someone who outranks you because you did not put in the time and effort to be in charge. If i was your LPO, i would have backed you, and then given you a few extra watches to remind you of your place in the food-chain. Grow up, and you may learn that your constant nitpicking of those that outrank you, just makes you look like an idiot, and weakens the Military as a whole.
You don't know me, and you make several poor assumptions. The CMAA shop wasn't busy enough, so they had us out LOOKING for infractions. I did what I was ordered to do. Your failure to understand the regs that require us to point out the infractions of seniors contributes to the decline of the military. Do a little investigation before making sweeping condemnations, Only Sweepers second class.
So, regs don't apply to commanders? Where is that in the UCMJ or your Branch regulations? Can you show me that cite?
Very grown up of you, and it's amazing how much you know about someone you've never met. Unfortunately, it's all wrong and poor guesses on your part. I'd be surprised if you've ever been an LPO. I have, at several commands.
"any nebulous thing I don't know does NOT matter until I discover it." Who died and made William God?
You did! We all have to react to what we see, not what might or might not exist that we don't. Anything less paralyzes us and prevents action.
StarlaRose, I agree with you. I am a 74 years old retired first sgt. I still remember the resentment that I felt in the 60's, as a young airman, when some of the officers wives thought it was their place to ( run the base). It was common knowledge on one Air Force base that the base commanders wife made the decisions; not the commander.
I try — difficult though it may be when I know I am right and the other person is wrong and, most importantly, I am SO right — to view such situations as opportunities to display my prowess at staying the heck in my own lane. ;-)
Agree with Danielle, also a veteran and milspouse. I would never correct anyone in uniform about their appearance or behavior (except for the parking thing, heck I would do that off base!) but that wouldn't stop me from telling my Chief husband about it. You never know who is watching or who they may be, the hat issue is a big pet peeve of mine. Yeah, I hated wearing it ALL THE TIME too, but I did and put my hair up and yada,yada, yada… If my husband sees anyone anywhere that is in his unit, he will quite FIRMLY tell them to fix whatever it is, unless it is an officer, then he will make a note to himself and get that guy when they are back in the squadron. I will also mention other things I see and the reason I do it is because it makes the military look bad when civilians see it. There is a standard of behavior both on and off duty, so while I would never confront the person, I would certainly let someone else who could do something about it if they choose.
I am not in the military, so I would not reprimand a servicemember for being out of regulation. I am aware of those regulations, but it's none of my business. I would consider this practice by a spouse to be presumptuous and obnoxious. Some may consider it being helpful to have them correct it before a fellow servicemember sees the infraction, but every servicemember is responsible for learning the rules and following those rules. It is not our job as spouses to protect them from actions.
I didn't know there was more than one version of wrong or out of regs. Wrong is wrong. If you drove by a cop without out his seatbelt on driving would you say something or just let it go? This is just another reason the Military is getting weak, scared to make a correction.
If you'll take another look, you'll see the question is if a SPOUSE should make the correction. Service members should still be watching and making contact with each other if something's wrong.
Right and if a fireman or police officer tell you not to run into a burning building to save your children you will standby so as to not disobey their order as their children burn.
You don't know what is going on in this situation; he obtained permission to do so, his wife was in a car accident about to die and needed to get their kid ASAP, pick any other situation.
I can only pray you don't hold a position of leadership because your ability to see the battle space is far off.
Your post makes no sense, and has little to no connection to the topic.
I have to agree with Zman. Wrong is wrong. Even if you are a spouse and you see something wrong with a person in uniform you should inform the person of the wrong, I didn't say correct them I said inform them. Too many people give the responsibility of informing a person of a wrong to someone else. I was in a leadership position in my 22.5 years in the military and I would welcome someone to correct me if they know the regulations and saw I was not living up to them. A military person should be proud to represent their unit correctly and if they are not in regulations then it should be pointed out no matter what the situation. Some people mentioned that we may not know the circumstances because there might be an emergency. You also don't know if there is not an emergency and that person was just being lazy and bringing a discredit to his unit. Anytime I needed to correct an infraction I first found out if the person knew the regulation, what the circumstance that lead to the infraction and why the person chose to disregard the regulation. That was because I was correcting the infraction and making a plan to keep it from happening again. You are not in the persons leadership chain so you would only inform the person of the infraction and then go on your way. You would not reprimand or correct the infraction because that is a leadership duty. One thing I always told my troops is that we represent a higher standard of dedication. Civilians are watching us at all times. So if a civilian pointed out an infraction it would have only proven my point and reinforced my statements. Someone stated that a person in the military earned the right to wear that uniform. Well, they earned the right to wear the uniform but they didn't earn the right to disgrace it and the other proud men and women who do follow the regulations. I started off by saying I would welcome a civilian to point out an infraction but I would have also challenged a civilian to point out an infraction.
If you KNOW they're wrong, you SHOULD say something. But don't 'SHIPMATE!!!!" them. Walk up, say conversationally, "You know that the regs prohibit what you're doing right now". Now, as a servicemember, I can go further, and demand to see their ID, get their name, their command, and the name of their supervisor, and report them, and have done so. As a spouse, reminding them that they're in the wrong is as far as you can and should go. But turning a blind eye encourages wrong behavior. Your spouse will continue to gripe about following rules others ignore if you ignore them, too.
Demand to see their ID? haha, not unless you are military police! You would get laughed at!
Anyone senior to you cn make you show it; they just have to show theirs. And go ahead and laugh, until they call those MPs. Then you're looking at insubordination, disrespect, and failure to obey lawful written and verbal orders.
Not to sound rude here, but the facts are what there are! Common sense and not your sense of pride should dictate on how you treat others. Bottom Line is you do not have the right to correct anyone other than yourself, you don't know the other person's circumstances so it's best if just mind your own business!!!
What a stupid question!! Only a weird, abusive spouse would order things with their spouse!! And I don't think deep down you have both spouses serving that they actually correct each other, unless they are losers in their own minds!! And if you let your, spouse order you around your a weak military individual and shouldn't wear a uniform!!!
Michael — I dont think you read the post. The question wasnt about letting your spouse order you around. The question was about whether or not spouses should correct other servicemembers when they are seen out of regulation, etc.
Stay in your lane. I'm a veteran still in the Ft Hood area and nearly every day I see some jacked up soldier but I bite my tongue. I'm not an NCO or even a soldier anymore so I have no right to make the correction so especially someone who has never been in has no business saying anything. Keep what you think you know to yourself because I can't tell you how many times I've heard spouses spout off erroneous information, they CAN be worse than barracks lawyers.
Here's an issue I've faced. Military members using horribly foul language in front of our tiny little girl. This seems to happen on post all the time. I find it very offensive to talk that way around two ladies, especially when one of them is 5 years old. A few times the guilty party's friends have given them grief about it and I've gotten a "Sorry, Ma'am" with a sheepish head looking down at the ground. A few times I have given the young man (or not so young man) who needed his mouth washed out with soap a stern look. Other times I have totally let it go and kicked myself afterwards. I'm would like to come up with a polite way to say something when necessary. I'm not new to the military, I know this talk unfortunately has become the norm, but I think they ought to have the discipline to turn it off when in public settings on or off base, and definitely around women and children.
It is not the responsibility of servicemembers to shelter women and children from foul language. Unless you're at a public function geared directly to children, you can either turn a blind ear or remove yourself and your child from the area. Sorry, but the world does not revolve around you or your kid.
Reference Art 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice! Profanity is listed under "indecent language", and profanity in the presence of minors is also listed! (Paragraph 60 is quoted below)
Elements.
(1) That the accused orally or in writing communicated to another person certain language;
(2) That such language was indecent; and
(3) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces. Note: In appropriate cases add the following element after element (1): That the person to whom the language was communicated was a child under the age of 16.
Note: When the language is communicated in front of a child, this offense is punishable under the new Article 120.
Explanation."Indecent" language is that which is grossly offensive to modesty, decency, or propriety, or shocks the moral sense, because of its vulgar, filthy, or disgusting nature, or its tendency to incite lustful thought. Language is indecent if it tends reasonably to corrupt morals or incite libidinous thoughts. The language must violate community standards. See paragraph 87 if the communication was made in the physical presence of a child.
Lesser included offenses.
(1) Article 117-provoking speeches
(2) Article 80-attempts
Maximum punishment. Indecent or insulting language.
(1) Communicated to any child under the age of 16 years. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.
(2) Other cases. Bad-conduct discharge; forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months.
I completely agree–another thing I would say to servicemembers and civilians alike–we have the right to be in a public place without ridiculous, over the top swearing in front of kids. I don't mean yelling at them with one swear word….I mean crossing that line that you can't be in the PX or wherever any more with a child…..I work with kids, sometimes out in public, and have had to ask civilians (some of the times teens) to stop excessive language and have gotten a lot of yelling about it. At least I know if I have to say something to a military member they likely will apologize, or at least stop–because military members are held to a higher code of conduct than civilians!
foul language around others just shows ignorance, and unprofessionalism. Bad manners too- male or female.
If I don't know another service's rules, I ask the servicemember I suspect of violating the regs what they are, so hopefully they'll think about it. But I do know the rules for my own service, and will challenge even senior officers tactfully. I asked a captain at a casino buffet if the regulations for the old woodland greens had changed to permit their wear in that venue, and told an admiral that wearing his flight suit to Wal-Mart set a bad example for the junior officers and enlisted I was always meeting there in THEIR flight suits. On the other hand, I've also had to tell a master chief that my command had ordered me to wear my NWU type IIIs to the airport to pick up sailors while on duty, and the reg he cited referred to liberty wear. So even when you know what the rules are, sometimes others have a different interpretation and will challenge YOU, too. I still say spouses should at least bring up the issue with offenders, so long as they don't act like they have any authority.
Spouses have no business saying anything!!! Period. It is not their place! Period. If they want to join the military and start correcting people then so be it. But if you have the nerve to butt into someone else business and you don't know what his story is, walk away! I hate meddling spouses, when it comes to the military. Especially when you got the wife talking for her man, cause he doesnt have any spine to speak up of himself!!!
If I heard a military spouse "correcting" a servicemember I would say something to the spouse, because that is not acceptable. I don't care who their husband is or what business they think they have doing that, no spouse has that right and they should know better.
Hey SemperSteen were you a Marine Officer stationed at MWWU-3 in Yuma AZ? This is John Winberry.
ANYONE seeing something wrong should be able to SAY something. "Hey, soldier, is that in the regs?" is perfectly acceptable, and I would say something to YOU for harassing a spouise saying that to a servicemember in the wrong. Now, a spouse saying "IAW article such & such, you are in violation…" is going too far, and I'd agree with you.
Then we should correct you. Marines are not soldiers, they are Marines. Thank you for your service but please, if you want us spouses to correct a wrong, there you go.
You make the assumption I am speaking to a marine. I'm generalizing. I see members of all services regularly. So I occasionally have to say something about uniforms or conduct to soldiers, airmen, marines, sailors, and coasties. And, btw, marines ARE soldiers, just a specialized subset – Venn diagram theory.
William – you are incorrect – to the point I question your claim of military service.
Debbie, you are buying propaganda when you accept the "marines are not soldiers" rhetoric. My service is not in question.
Maybe instead of correcting them for being out of regs it would be more appropriate to thank them for their service because we of all people know the sacrifice they are making for us and our country. We will always find what we are looking for and I think we would all be a little happier if we spent our time looking for the corageous acts rather than the little slip ups. We all make mistakes and I have to admit having a stranger point it out has never helped me, it has just upset me. Just my 2 cents
Bad philosophy. If a stranger pointing out your mistakes angers you, grow up. Accept constructive criticism gracefully, and ignore malicious criticism.
If it was someone I knew, I would politely remind them in a "hey, I don't want you to get in trouble" kind of way. Other than that, I'm just not that gutsy though there are times I would desperately like to reprimand soldiers for "acting a fool" be in in or out of uniform. We are stationed in Hawaii and even out of uniform, you know who's who. I used to work food service and there were times I would "forget" to mention the discount if they acted or dressed especially trashy. (Granted, we weren't supposed to remind customer of the discount anyway, but hey I'm a spouse, I'm going to do it anyway.) Did I feel bad that I didn't give someone a discount that fights for our country? Sometimes. But for Christ's, sake be proud of YOURSELF and what you do for a living.
"But for Christ's, sake be proud of YOURSELF and what you do for a living" Nice.
As a veteran and current military spouse, the answer is NO! A spouse has no rank, and therefore no authority to correct service members about strictly military affairs. In short, it is none of the spouse's business, and will only cause a scene.
It is a matter of pride to me that if they stand next to my husband on the front time then they should at least know how to wear their uniform properly. I would correct them because I find it offensive when one blatantly does not follow rules. Being a marine is a service, BUT it is also a responsibility and a privilege. I may not be able to enforce it, but I will make a fool of them in public if they try it multiple times. Just because they wear a uniform doesn't mean they should wear it everywhere.
This comes from what my mother raised me on, she being a retired marine as well. She also finds it offensive when marines wear their cammies out of place.
And you know what they are going to say to you when you try to make them look like a fool? They are going to say "who the hell are you?" and walk away without changing a thing. I am always amused when a Marine gives my husband attitude when he makes a correction. They always get that foot in the mouth moment when they find out who he is and he asks to see their ID. You do not have the pull that a Marine would have when giving a correction. They are going to look at you like a busybody wife who thinks she deserves the same respect as her Marine husband. Let the Marines police themselves.
Stephanie – you need to join and earn the rank – right now you are nothing. Do you also correct boyscouts and girlscouts?
No rank needed to point out something wrong.
Stephanie, I find it offensive when a spouse wears the service/rank of her husband. (you never, ever see male spouses do this. They must have lives or something). How about you get off your back and join up yourself?
I always get a kick out of the “do you know who my husband is?” ladies. They may mean a little something to their fellow spouses, but to the members, they pretty much mean squat. Now, if they want to come off as caring about the member getting in trouble, that’s fine. Marines, on the other hand, probably know better than members of other branches what’s right and wrong since it’s drilled into their heads from the day they step onto the yellow footprints. If they’re out in town in uniform, they either know they’re wrong and it was unavoidable, or they just don’t care and need to be taken out back and shown the regs.
You better enlist cause your mama and your man don't count in giving you any rank. Best moment of my career was when the Base Commander told his wife to move out of line at the Exchange to let me through the Military In Uniform line!
Its so none of the spouses business. I can't tell you how many times I see folks at the mall in their uniform. Maybe the regs are different ar ft. Drum but I really don't care. As a spouse I see a lot of other spouses with inflated sense of self importance because their husband is in the military.
How dare a spouse or anyone else correct a service person!!
Unless it was the service person’s boss.
My husband “corrects” people below him, as in who he works with and whose ranks are under my husband’s. He even makes them shave with a cheap razor if they forget to shave, hoping it’s a reminder for next time.
Well gosh – anyone would correct a subordinate. Not really what we are talking about here.
If they're wrong, they SHOULD be corrected. Back in the 80s, when the army wasn't allowed out in town in cammies, I saw it all the time. It was a military town, we all knew they were wrong. But your attitude supported their misbehavior.
This article and many of the comments are for sure focusing on the uniform aspect of things–and I say a firm NO to whether a spouse would EVER comment on a uniform related issue to another servicemember. Never!
However, it also was referring to misconduct. If I did see a group of guys out (or on base) that I recognized as from my husbands unit, and they were doing something so far out of bounds that it required me saying something, I would speak up. One example that comes to mind was when I would often see groups of servicemembers out on the town–if I saw they about to drive drunk or were in a situation where they were about to get booted out of a bar or restaurant, I would say something–mostly just to keep them safe and keep them from getting into trouble! But beyond extreme circumstances, I would not intervene–we all need to be accountable for our own actions and as long as they aren't putting others safety at risk or about to be arrested or something….then its none of my business. However, that is pretty much the same thing I would do if I saw a group of civilians I recognized out in that situation!
One point that I see no one comment on, and perhaps not this issue, is the use of handicapped parking. Without regard to the designated space being on base/post or off the use of the space is governed by the traffic laws of the state, district, territory, or country in which the military facility is located. And all that I am aware of will issue a sticker, or placard,or license plate of some form, according to the laws of that state et.al. In most cases this requires the operator or passenger for whom the vehicle is being operated is disabled and a certification signed by a doctor or other authorized individual be on file or available to any law enforcement officer so requesting. The problem with this is that most people believe this means a person on crutches or in a wheel chair. I know of a group of hearing impaired people that felt that should apply to them because then they could park in the handicapped spaces by their office building, and not have to walk from the parking structure. The first requirement for a placard in that state was the inability to walk 80 feet with out stopping to rest, or if the individual was required to use portable oxygen. The Director of Disability Resources at that school took the personal position that if you were in a wheelchair, either electric or hand powered and had no difficulty getting around campus then you did not need disabled parking on her campus. That director was in a wheel chair, had an artificial breathing device, and an electric motor on her chair.
The point is that the placard is not limited to people on crunches or wheelchairs but includes those individuals with mobility problems. So the next time you see an otherwise healthy individual get out of a vehicle parked in a handicapped space check first for a placard or license plate. And if you must stop an individual and inquire about their disability first you might remind them that they forgot to display their placard, if this brings a blank stair. Then you might consider asking them what their disability accommodation is. And this is the only question you as a spouse may ask, As for the current crop of wounded warriors, if they are still in uniform then two situations are possible. They have completed a physical review and are fit for service or they have failed the physical review board and are not fit for service. As such they should qualify for a handicapped placard.
Medical Retired 1985
I had told someone, several months ago, that I was disabled. He said "you don't look disabled". Once I picked my jaw up off the floor I asked him what being disabled looked like. He didn't have an answer and never brought it up again.
I would just tell the spouse go f… off.
And you would not only be wrong for doing so, you'd be a classless troglodyte, an embarrasment to the service, and subject to correction from any servicemember who saw you do it.
How many GI's carry their civies with them to change into after work? The AF has made it a reg that quick errends are allowed in cammies/flight suits, with the intent to get in and get out. Common sense? I would hope so, because I do it.
In this case, absolutely not… I am a former servicemember, and with this guy picking up his kid – who knows if there were circumstances… I would not have said a word. Have I corrected soldiers before? You betcha… it peeves me to no end to see a soldier without his headgear outside… If you're gonna be a soldier, be one when no one is looking. When I do say something, it is from a point of being a former officer, not as a milspouse though… don't know if that makes a difference, don't care. My husband changes his clothes before he leaves work, but if he's going to pick up the children… that might not happen…
In the navy, childcare is one of the legal occasions for wear. But if I have any doubts, I'll ask. They may try to blow smoke, assuming they can make up army or marine regs and I won't know. I may not know, but if they know they were wrong, I hope it'll affect their behavior later, and if they were too stupid or ignorant to know better, maybe me questioning them will make them look it up.
I am both a veteran and a military spouse. When I was an NCO, it was my job to enforce standards, correct violations. Since I have become a spouse and no longer active duty, I refrain from correcting violations. Believe me, it isn't easy. Having been out of the military for less time that I was in, it is hard to break the habit of correcting. However, I refrain because it is no longer my job to do so. It is for the military members to make the corrections, they are bound by regulation to do so. The military spouse is not involved with military regulation any more than a spouse of an employee of a civilian corporation would have the right to hand out work assignments.
As a side note concerning the expectant mother parking spot. As you stated, the spot is not protected by military regulation, and therefore you were not attempting to enforce such regulations. You were however, reminding two young men that there is a thing called common courtesy and that they should consider the hardship they are causing by acting in such a rude manner. You did a civic duty, not a military one and as such were well within your rights.
Stay in your lane. Pick your battle. Both accurate ways of looking at this issue. Military courtesy… now that is something that applies to both military members and their civilian spouses. Regs in each service indicate proper decorum should be given, so if a violation worth note is observed the proper and polite thing would be to address the issue in a tone of proper deference to rank and position. On the spot corrections are a duty of every service member, but are always a matter of tact.
The author offered a great example of a community correction with the expectant mother parking spot; and, in my opinion, offered a better resolve for other spouses, you might be the boss of YOUR husband, but no other soldier or service person (male or female) stay in your lane and let soldiers police soldiers, or marines, airmen or sailers. You have no official status. If you want to make the corrections, earn the right by serving yourself, otherwise, bite your tongue.
1st. as far as making a correction about the parking spot, I think you were right on! those parking spots are yours as much as mine on post. However for a spouse to "correct" a soldier in uniform I think youll find tha answer is definately a NO.. Frankly as a Soldier for the better part of 19 yrs I dont even like retired soldiers correcting me. The only correcting to be done is by current soldiers within the ranks. That being said its a shame that todays NCO corps is seriously lacking the integrity needed to do that especially when there are spouses out there willing to do it! A note on that though, I see nothing wrong with poitely approaching a soldier and letting them know they are out of whatever regulation it may be. and frankly if its an NCO or an Officer nneding the correcting, they deserve the embarasement it may cause….
I think we have a difference of interpretation here. For me, 'correcting' may mean casual mention up through a written counseling, and it sounds like you mean it as more of a formal verbal counseling to a written counseling. Yeah, spouses have no authority to come on like gangbusters and try to make a report, but anyone in the wrong should have the good grace to accept a spouse or retiree pointing out something wrong, as long as they don't try to complain to your CO (unless your response to them is nasty enough to justify complaining on THAT score).
While I doubt that most civilians want to see rag-bag uniforms all over the place, the fact is that the only people who have enough personal concern to correct a service member over the uniform are his or her unit members, chain or command, perhaps retired military. Any one else should probably mind their own business. But, if there are those out there who feel the need to be correcting others on how they dress or what they wear, how about a national campaign to get stupid men to pull their pants up above their butts and wear belts?
Just issue Darwin runner-up certificates to those children.
I correct all goofballs that come to my humbull aboard. No sagging pants in my house by teenegers or adults.
What if you are a spouse that is a Veteran? Do you think they have the right to correct military members?
"The Marine Corps’ rules about where and when the uniform is to be worn are more stringent than those of others services, such as the Army. For example, according to this regulation, the uniform may only be worn in a civilian setting during a “bonafide emergency” or in a vehicle to and from duty. They are allowed to wear it in a drive-thru, but they are not allowed to run other errands in it. Members of other services like the Army, on the other hand, can wear the uniform immediately after duty hours to almost anywhere under most circumstances."
—The Army must of changed the rules since I was in. I got discharged in '85 and the Army had the same rules as the Marines, apparently, still have.
"The Marine Corps rules about where and when the uniform is to be worn are more stringent than those of others services, such as the Army. For example, according to this regulation, the uniform may only be worn in a civilian setting during a bonafide emergency or in a vehicle to and from duty. They are allowed to wear it in a drive-thru, but they are not allowed to run other errands in it. Members of other services like the Army, on the other hand, can wear the uniform immediately after duty hours to almost anywhere under most circumstances."
When I was in the ARMY in the '80s the rules were the same as the Marines. Apparently, now, someone has stuck their head up their ass.
By the way, no don't correct a service member unless you want your ass kicked.
I like it when someone tries to correct for a regulation that does not exist, or one that changed since the 20 years they have been in.
I have seen retired people complain about stickers on a car, pt gear, sandals, loved it when they get confused over the whole sleeves rolled up or down, etc. The lengths people go through to feel important and get into someone's business will never cease to amaze me.
If you have a problem with a service member, best thing is to document it, with pics if possible, and submit this to their command, and let the command decide if the service member was vioalting any regs or not. Of course this is all a great moral booster, a service member thinking every civilian is now going to document their entire public life looking for even the lsightest screw up, or just spin any moment into the service person being a screw up.
Perhaps this is a great idea for for those anti-military types, flood military towns with people to follow service members on their off time to make sure they do not step out of line.
Good point about enforcing nonexistent or changed rules – the best defense is be current on them so you can quote them to anyone trying to do that. But it's not always about feeling important. Some of us are in positions that formally require us, in addition to our NCO authority and obligation, to enforce the regulations. But it can cut the other way as well: several years ago, the MA on my ship tried to ban raincoats on watch, because several Deck sailors had paint on their raincoats. I showed up to watch in mine, and when he told me I couldn't wear it, I showed him the article describing authorized wear – the All-Weather coat is authorized in any weather and any uniform. He should have been enforcing the off-going OODs inspection of the on-coming watches uniforms, instead of being intellectually lazy and thinking he had the authority to change the uniform regs onboard with a verbal order from him, rather than a written one from the CO. After that, the OODs cracked down for a while on unsat uniforms on watch, and the CO never did sign the rule he wanted.
What I fail to understand is if someone is doing something WRONG, then they SHOULD be corrected. I don't care whom does the correcting. There is a way to tactfully correct or at least inquire if what someone is doing is correct. Call the individual over and have a quiet conversation. If they are an individual with any integrity at all they will thank you or politely advise you are miss informed. I always look at it from this angle. It is better for someone to correct you than for the Base/Wing Commander or their spouse to see you. Trust me, that will not go well. It starts with the Group CO being called on the carpet in front of the other Group COs during morning stand up. Then it happens to the Squadron CO, then the 1st Sgt, then to the Section/Branch, then to me the Supervisor. That tu*d has built up speed on the way down. Perhaps the one correcting you was the Base/Wing COs spouse, and you chose to make a jack**s out of yourself. Or even if it were a civilian, and you were an a**, they will often call the Base/Wing COs office and complain. Your name is on your chest after all. All of this could be avoided by maintaining your personal standards. And if you do make a mistake "WE ALL DO", then be polite and correct it. SET the example, do not BE an example. You represent the uniform and all it stands for.
Their is tack in how you correct someone. Maybe must of you forgot that you're serving the USA. I serve for 21 years as an enlisted. My last 5 at the Fitness Center on Base, then returned as a civilian. I cannot tell you how many times I had to tell Airmen that the forgot their cover coming or going the Fitness Center. Mind you some of then are full birds Colonels. Majority are Lts just fresh out of the Academy or college and are here for pilot training. This is the bigeest pilot training base in the Air Force. I sure do not want folks to look like morons. Even as a civilian I corrected then tackfully. 99 percent of the time the plane just forgot. I have seen folk in sneakers and uniform and I nicelly asked them if the are on profile. They nicely said yes I got hurt the other day. She has every right to correct him, but nicelly. Maybe you folks forgot she is a tax payer in some shape or form and your employer…LOL.
Okay about the parking space for expecting mothers or handicaps. Yes it is a regulation,for you to post a sign on Air force installation you have to have approval from the civil Engineering Commander deligated from the Group comander. As a disabled VA I do not park in spaces designated for Handicap. I see folks do it at work or Wal-mart etc. It burns me. Just plane lazy.
Service members know the regulations. If they are not obeying them a correction from the spouse is not going to mean anything. They are choosing to ignore the regulations, they will choose to ignore the spouse.
A Marine spouse is not a Marine, she is a Marine depenent. Dependents are not in the chain of command. A senior Marine should be the only one offering correction to a Marine.
MGySgt (Retired)
That's how rules get ignored. If you need someone senior to correct them, then they just do what they want until that senior shows up. I don't know the marine regs like the navy regs, but the navy regs make evrery sailor, regardless of paygrade, responsible for pointing out errors to all others, regardless of paygrade. Then crusty old seniors like you tell them to stay in their paygrade and follow your practice, so they scuttle back into their shell and say nothing when they see fireman Timmy in a plain white t-shirt and cut-offs.
No, and I don’t think there should be expectant mother parking either.
I'm guessing you've never had a complicated pregnancy and had to haul other kids to and from where you were going. I can tell you I appreciated the parking with a toddler and when I was pregnant, newly diagnosed with pneumonia.
You should have just stayed home. no need for the 200 parking spaces for expectanct mothers, then the 200 for handicap, and then 100 for the rest of us to fight over. Or we can park a couple miles away and ruck there. But since you were sooo high risk you obviously were there for an emergency right?
This poses a particular problem for Navy "Docs" (FMF Corpsmen) when attached to USMC units.
Whenever his duty station changes, my NCO Doc husband LITERALLY OVERNIGHT is newly allowed/newly prohibited from running minor errands in his cammies on the way home from work. He first ran into this brick wall full tilt almost a decade ago when he dared to return public library books on his way home from the USMC base at Twentynine Palms, CA; the head librarian — widow of a Marine — read him the riot act about it at top volume in front of dozens of bewildered kids and their parents. (So much for "Quiet in the Library," neh?)
I really wish regs would clarify whether these strictures apply to the UNIFORM ITSELF or to the servicemember wearing them (e.g., "This certain category of USMC *UNIFORM* may not be worn [by ANYBODY] during Activity X" as vs. "*A MARINE* may not wear this certain category of uniform during Activity X").
As far as the father picking up his child, regs are regs, but there may be extenuating circumstances, and having to deal with kids is a complication to anything. I would suggest making a polite suggestion to the Chaplain and have him make a note for the commander to remind all his Marines of the reg. That way, you've addressed the situation, not hassled the father, and the CO can decide if there's a pattern he needs to follow up with, a general reminder he needs to make, or to ignore it as nitpicking.
As far as corrections in general, you certainly have both a right and a civic responsibility to MENTION the discrepancy. "Excuse me, PO/Sergeant/Marine, your top button is unbuttoned. I wouldn't want you to get gigged, so I wanted to make sure you were aware of it."
Then it's up to the member if they correct it or blow you off, but they will know it's been noted and they're visible. And they might appreciate the correction, if they were unaware.
I happen to be the spouse of a service member and a veteran, I am also a DoD contractor that works with service members everyday, I tend not to say things to service members who are out of regs, I usually have my husband do it as he only work a few cubical s away, but I feel as a veteran and a military spouse that I have that right as I know Military regulations when it comes to wearing the inform and when it should not be worn, but I think you have to really know what you are talking about to be able to correct a service member.
Hate to disappoint you all, but a spouse should nicely correct any service member. As an airman I have corrected Navy Chiefs. My wife has corrected a few Airmen (O/E both). For most part you need to be grateful when you’re corrected by anyone, tactfully and respectfully.
I’ve left the gym a couple times with pants unbloused. A young airman’s wife caught it. Glad she told me. My CC was around the corner.
I applaud you for calling someone out for a uniform violation. There are SNCOs that won't even do this. Yes, as one poster noted, they have earned the right to wear the uniform, but that means they are to wear it properly. If you need help from a civilian spouse to remember how to properly dress yourself, you have forfeited your "rights". And if the Corps has a rule that you aren't supposed to wear it off post, you follow the rule. The one thing I might ask the command if the intent of the regulation is a Marine can't stop and pick up their child. The original intent (my interpretation) is that folks would not be out and about shopping or hitting the bars, bringing embarrassment to the Corps.
To this spouse…keep it up!
To the original poster. Do you seriously have nothing better to do than to sit around stressing out over little things like this?
The uniform is a symbol of pride, those that don’t wear it right obviously don’t really have all that much to begin with. Wagging your finger and acting as the playground chaperone is not a good way to take the high road. I mean, you could always make it entertaining by putting on a ghillie suit and set up an OP outside of local establishments and call for a close air gun run every time they commit a spot check minor.
Taking out your frustrations on retards that will remain retards is just a waste of your energy, and you never know when karma will catch up with you. Everyone makes mistakes, and how would you like a taste of that finger wagging if it were pointed at you?
Just let it go, okay?
“Recon82″
Cavalryman/Combat Veteran
Golden Spur Member
I was a young Air Force Captain, sitting in my flight suit in the passenger terminal at BWI, waiting with a large group to board our flight to the Middle East to begin my deployment. I had been up for 17 hours and had flown in earlier from Fayetteville, NC. I was thinking of the time I'd be away from my family and the leadership role I would have in the sand & wondering how effective I could be dealing directly with other NATO officers and the Saudis—especially as a female, especially in light of our cultural differences. My thoughts were interrupted by a booming voice coming from a US Army Major standing directly in front of me, over me, telling me to remove my diamond stud earrings, because DIAMONDS were not authorized for wear with the flight utility uniform. I silently removed the earrings, and he walked away.
I could have picked a battle, right there with a couple hundred stressed out, fatigued deployers, but I chose not to, for everyone's sake. I would have WON—because he was WRONG. In the Air Force, diamond studs ARE authorized with flight suits, and I will never forget what a *genius* he was for making that an issue when there were so many other more important things to focus on as we all waited there.
I'm retired now, after 20 years of service. I'm also widowed—my husband died on active duty after returning from his deployment from Iraq in 2007. I completed my deployments, served my 20, and obviously my husband "gave all"—and I still wear the diamond earrings that MAJ was so wrong about.
As a retiree & veteran, I've been humbled enough to know that I never knew all of the other services' rules, I don't keep up with the current uniform rules for the Air Force, and if someone is appearing to be "out of uniform", there are plenty of ways for that to be remedied that have nothing to do with me.
To retirees & spouses who would step in to correct a minor uniform detail, in my opinion and experience, "Discretion is the better part of valor. "
If, to the best of his knowledge, they were not authorized, the Major should have said so quietly. In 05, after the navy backpack rules changed, I was sent to a school. I showed up in my joghnny cashes with black backpack over the left shoulder, in accordance with the new regs. A chief at the quarterdeck yelled loudly at me to remove it, saying it was not authorized. I did so, saying "actually, chief, the regulation changed last August". At this point, a senior chief ran at me, yelling at me not to talk back to the quarterdeck. She didn't like it wen I said "all due respect, but I was not talking back. I was informing the chief that the regulation had changed". She told me I was wrong, and they would pull me from class later to show me so. My chief heard about it when he showed up, and said I should have just gone along. He was wrong – if you don't tell them, they will continue to be wrong. They never did pull me out to show me the regs, because they weren't going to apologize for their mistake.
You could have said; "My husband is a Marine too. When did the regs about wearing uniform on errends change? He didn't tell me." The Marine could have then said he was only running in to get his child etc. He would know he had been caught but no harm would have been done.
If it does not have to do with safety or absolute inappropriate behavior, the spouse should not attempt to correct the member. Unfortunately some members may not react well and make a situation worse. If you (Spouse or civilian member) see a problemor potential problem, there are ways to report it to the proper authorities.
Which WILL get a lot of them in trouble. You saying something quietly gives them the chance to fix it without bringing trouble down on them.
Lol! Absolutely not! I say mind your own business, or get a life! Who cares, does it affect you? Or ruin your whole day? Carry on……
NO! If a spouse feels that strong about uniform violations, maybe he/she should join the military. Now you have the authority.
A spouse is a spouse, no rank, no title, no authority, i do not care if you are the CO's wife. you are a spouse. Nothing more, nothing less. I deal with many spouses on a day to day basis due to my job who always want to throw out….oh my husband is a chief or some officer. ok thats cool but what does that have to do with the price of tea in china? absolutely nothing is the answer. You have no right to correct a servicemember unless you want to get the eat poop look and probably several profane insults thrown your way. So the answer is a strong NO!!!!!!!
If your not sleeping with the service member keep your mouth SHUT. You are not in the military ,wanna
boss someone around(other than your ?significant?other) enlist or get commissioned.MYOB
The MOST arrogant of spouses are the Senior Enlisted (E-6 and above) and almost any Officers spouse, I had a similar interaction, where i had to actually ask one, Are you in the service? Which she replied, No, but my husbands an Officer, to which i replied, so your JUST an officers spouse and I walked away to her sputtering behind me. basic is, YOUR NOT IN, YOUR A GUEST, SO DON'T BE A PEST, to those of us that signed/swore in, whether you Think You Know Better, or not as much as you Nosey Nellies think you do. The military is stressfull enough without worrying about spouses calling you out on some BS, I was In 21 years, retired, been married over 26 years to SAME wife. Mind YOUR own business, Your OWN husband, unless its actually harmful to others, (talking physical harm here).
The answer to this question is an absolute NO.
The military has a chain of command and rank structure for a reason. It is not the place of a spouse to correct a service member. You are not in the military, nor do you hold any rank. You do not wear your spouses rank. It is the responsibility of other service members to correct the soldier in question. Not yours. We take care of our own. We don’t need spouses to do it for us.
No a spouse should not say a word to a member in uniform about regulations. A spouse has a very important job …. but in no way does it give them the right to wear the rank except in there own home. I did 20 years my spouse was and still is by my side. It ticked me off when I would hear officers and some chiefs wives make comments like " we made rank on this date"
Having pride over your spouse’s career is a great thing, and shows your support to your family, but you do not wear the rank or responsibility your spouse wears. There is no chain of command, and you have no one to report to. I can see how it would irritate you, but the only one it should irritate is a Marine.
There was a response that said, “You could have said; “My husband is a Marine too. When did the regs about wearing uniform on errends change? He didn’t tell me.” The Marine could have then said he was only running in to get his child etc. He would know he had been caught but no harm would have been done.”
He does not report to the spouse, nor does he owe a response. We hold each other to high standards. If a Marine is violating a regulation, he will get caught with due time. It is not the place of a spouse, who has not earned the title of a Marine, to identify and correct those out of regulation.
One of the posters, William, brought up the point of correcting someone because “they will continue to be wrong.” While I agree with that statement, it is only appropriate for the actual service member to correct. It is not the duty of a spouse, or the responsibility.
I wouldn’t mind the correction of a boot unbloused or my button slipping undone. That is a just a courtesy that I would appreciate even out of uniform (i.e. – your fly undone). When it comes to correcting regulations, tell your spouse and leave it to the Marines.
I personally wouldn't say anything because i'm not in the military, i don't study military regulations and even if i did i seriously doubt they would listen. After all they're not required to take orders from a spouse. I've read comments where people feel that if you don't say anything they'll never correct their behavior. It doesn't matter that you're a spouse, we have a standard. Every organization, business, etc., has a standard. No matter how knowledgeable i am about the standard of someone else's job, i can't walk into a bank and instruct a teller how to count down their drawer. Maybe i could but i'm sure they would look at me funny. I doubt that anyone is spending their free time making sure employees, members, etc., are keeping the standard in a place where they're not employed or the chain of command. Going around reporting people when they're not putting themselves or others in harm's way, is not what i do in my spare time. I have a career path of my own.