If race discrimination is “racism,” and class discrimination is “classim,” then what we have in the military spouse community is a raging case of “rankism.”
Chances are you – yes, you – are suffering from ranksim. If it’s small and hidden it may pop-up at unexpected times, like when you avoid a potential new friend for no reason except that you’re jealous of her expensive looking boots that just screams “officer’s spouse.”
But for many it’s a glaring, crippling issue that shows itself at ugly times – times when you could be meeting fantastic new friends or supporting someone who really just needs a rank-free hug. Like a flashing sign it screams your baseless bias. “I don’t like you because you’re husband is enlisted and that makes me think you are low-class — and you might give me cooties,” it says. Or, perhaps, “I resent you! Your husband is an officer, so that means you’re a sorority girl and think you’re better than me!”
I read a post yesterday from a blogger known as Mrs. Sergeant who is trying to sort through her own rankism, although she didn’t call it that. Her husband is considering a move from NCO to officer, and she wonders if being included in the officer spouse set would change who she is. “My only qualm is well… You all know how I feel about spouses of the Officer variety. While there are amazing ones out there, there are also equally unamazing ones,” she writes.
It would be easy to be annoyed with Mrs. Sergeant for openly proclaiming her bias on such a well publicized blog (it was featured in a recent issue of Military Spouse Magazine) … but if you did that, you would just be feeding your own problem. Instead, why not consider her brave for mulling out loud a taboo subject and giving us all a chance to talk to about it?
That rankism is a tricky problem for spouses is no wonder. On the one hand, your servicemember is embroiled in rankism by law. He has to respect and obey the stripes, bars, and stars, or he isn’t doing his job. But if your husband, for whatever reason, translates that respect into disdain and then brings it home with him, it’s easy for you to associate rank with hate, the hated NCO or officer in question with his unsuspecting spouse and that couple with all NCOs or officers everywhere.
Or, perhaps, your husband is the one with the rank. His job is to support and guide the guys (and gals) below him. But if instead of guiding he belittles them, and then schleps that attitude home, it’s easy for you to associate his belittling with disgust — and not just for that NCO or lower enlisted guy and his perfectly nice spouse, but for enlisted personnel everywhere.
Put these two rankist spouses – the enlisted one with the hate and the officer one with the disgust – in a room, and do you know what you get? At the very best people who want absolutely nothing to do with each other, and more than likely a pair that is spreading division, contempt and misunderstanding throughout their individual spouse circles.
The truth is that there are amazing and, as Mrs. Sergeant says, “unamazing” spouses in every rank from E-1 to O-7 and beyond. Just like ladies from Texas don’t have a monopoly on “big hair” and not everyone who hails from California is tan and blonde, the spouses of officers aren’t all “Legally Blonde” and the spouses of enlisted servicemembers don’t have a lock on being Reese Witherspoon’s character’s nail tech or anything else.
Instead of giving in to the bias of rankism, ask yourself how you can help get rid of it.
About Amy Bushatz
Comments
My big concern isn't about stereotypes, but about confusion over what is acceptable and what isn't. My husband hopes to apply for OCS soon, so we'd be going to the officer side of things. I wouldn't ditch my friends from one base just because I got PCS'ed; why would I ditch my enlisted spouse friends just because my husband gets a new rank?
But then I was told (by an officer's adult daughter) that officer wives have to be VERY careful about getting too friendly with enlisted wives. I was told that although it's not technically "forbidden", it's often viewed as "inappropriate". So now I really AM worried that if my husband makes officer, I'll lose all of my enlisted spouse friends. I don't want my personal friendships to affect his career, but I also don't want to pass up a good friendship if I don't have to.
I think you enunciated this perfectly and I see it from the other side of the equation. As an enlisted spouse once you've been through enough of the scenario of, "This person is really cool! I wonder if I could become friends with her!" and find that you are kindly and politely 'shut out' of anything but passing, but genuine courtesy in public, it's hard to go back. I KNOW that the officer spouses I know are WONDERFUL people. On the other hand, I pick up on their caution immediately and it makes it hard to push through. Some of my closest friends are Officer's wives, but at least one of them had to tell me that her husband would find it very awkward to socialize as families because it could be considered 'fraternization.' I can accept that, but it also put some very real limits on ways we could interact.
I don't give a rip about what your boots look like, and I'm not generally jealous. I know the grass isn't always greener and I've seen that played out in the Officer community in a variety of ways. It's this awkward feeling of 'Is it even ok for me to talk to you?' that seems to come from all sides that I find hard to navigate.
I wish that somebody would answer this question for us once and for all! This is one of the things I hate the most about "fraternization". We know that it's obviously okay for us to be polite and courteous to one another regardless of rank, but beyond that it seems like it's all a gray area. Obviously, I could see it being awkward if an officer's wife invited over an enlisted wife & her husband for a quiet dinner; maybe it's not really inappropriate, but I could see how that could give the appearance of favoritism. But where's the "line" supposed to be drawn?
Is it okay for an officer's wife to invite over an enlisted wife for coffee while their husbands are at work or deployed? Is it okay for an enlisted wife to babysit for an officer's wife when her husband is deployed and she has a doctor's appointment? Is it okay for an enlisted wife to hold a barbecue and invite all of her friends – officer & enlisted alike?
Yes! Yes! Yes! Fraternization has NOT A THING to do with spouses – because a spouse does not have rank. Now, having said that, one has to be careful who they chum up with. It's more about what spouse runs their mouth too much spreading around everyone elses's business. And "diarreah of the mouth" has no rank – I've seen an E3 spouse do it, as well as a genera's wife, and everything in between.
As far as Fraternization between soldiers, there is no "line." It's a grey area. The ranking soldier hopefully has the professionalism to be able to decide where the line is in each individual situation.
My husband is prior enlisted and I'm still friends with all of our enlisted friends (we're both the same people, no magic happened at commissioning to turn us into a new 'better' breed). I've also been friends with some his guys spouses. My husband would never be bias because I'm friends with one of the spouses (which is really what's frowned upon in re: to fraternization).
My biggest pet peeve is people who tell me that they, "couldn't invite so and so to a luncheon because their husband works for theirs". WHAAAAT?! What does she have to do with the work her husband does? She's not allowed to be friends or attend a luncheon because of that? I always invite everyone, if someone feel uncomfortable, they won't come. Last time my husband heard a spouse say that, he almost blew a gasket. I always hope that all of the spouses in my husband department with come to lunches and dinners at our house, I always want to get to know them, because during deployment, it's easier to lean on someone who works in close quarters with my husband and knows what's going on than someone who has no idea.
All that being said, we usually have people over in groups. That way it's never favoritism, it's just a dinner/get together.
I don't know, that's just our prior enlisted view on it. Maybe we're not supposed to have enlisted people over, but my husband has never been counseled any differently and the command knows we do it.
Fraternization really only applies when there would be an inappropriate relationship developing or where a person would begin to get "special" treatment from a leader. Associating with people that are officer or enlisted is not taboo. It's just you can't expect your CDR and PSG's to not associate with each other. And if a PSG and the CDR associate together, and the PSG gets in trouble for doing something stupid at work, they should have the maturity to understand that work is work. It's business, not a belittling or derogatory situation usually. Spouses have no recourse honestly from associating with other spouses. In fact holding get togethers like you stated can often help improve the cohesiveness of a unit. When my wife is happy with my unit, it makes my crappy unit a little less irritating when they do something annoying, and it makes my awesome unit even better when shes excited about the people in my unit.
Is very interesting that this article was here this week. Today at church the staff make a decision base of the best interest of the commanders wife. I never get involve w activities on base for the reason that military wives carry their husband ranks like is part of their cloths. I really don’t care the rank cuz I believe I’m a professional women that don’t need a tank to feel and treat others with respect and dignity. This military wives they believe they are above other people but the don’t realize how stupid they look acting fool. They commander that it was mention on the story I hope is real cuz Sometimes these women’s need to be put in their place. To those that mention that they are offiicers or enlisted wife and they base their friendship or to who they make friend I’m very sad for them cuz wake up is more than a rank or a job is a lack of personality believe that you can only make friends w people base on what there husband do( work/ rank)
Holly,
Heres the real meat of it…. If say for example, and enlisted spouse befriends an officer spouse and the wives plot to have a dinner together and they all go out and eat together. Someone sees the enlisted and the officer sitting together at the same table. What does that person think? Even if it is not Frat, if someone perceives it, there are consequences. I've seen it happen to someone in my Chain.
On the other side of it, if you invite a whole bunch of people to a barbeque and no one feels left out, its perfectly okay, because there can be no perceived frat or favoritism. That is the line as it is ingrained into military people. We get training on it about once a year I'd say. Every time someone manages to mess up.
Also to be noted!!! All previous relationships before an officer becomes commissioned are absolutely allowed! (You just have to make sure to be respectful of the new rank at work and work related functions) That can't be frat.
Well I wasn’t to talking necessarily of people from the same unti, is bunderstand that u need a line w the supervisor but we are talking about the wives that want preference in all activities and other fun activities Just because the have an spouse in a supervisory position. This last weekend the wive of the base commander took an entire box of donations baking accessories for herself just cuz she flash her husband rank. ; we were suppose to take one of each . The same wive manage to brake all church regulation doing the same. Is very irritating that we have to see that , she’s just the wive and flash her husband position to do things that for me don’t make sense
I agree with this completely. I have noticed that many of the wives, no matter what their spouse's rank, do not talk with others. It's almost like everyone is on their toes and very different from my mother's experiences as a military spouse. I feel like I am always the one to initiate the conversation as no one talks to each other. Not to mention the husband's do not know people's first names and are terrible at introductions because of it.
Hmmm…I suspect that you were told that by other spouses. There's no rule, law, or regulation that forbids you from socializing with spouses regardless of their significant other's rank. I'm prior enlisted, currently commissioned…and all that stuff is foisted around by spouses who try to recreate a separate heirarchy or pecking order. It's all self perfpetuated hogwash. My advice is to select your friendships wisely based on character and integrity…not their significant other's rank. Avoid drama-gossip mongers, those who flirt with breaking the law, etc. Those are the types that will drag down your husband's career…not enlisted wives or whatever.
I totally agree that the problem is what is acceptable and what is not. One of my best friends here in Norfolk is an enlisted wife (E-6) and her husband is a FC, my husband is a CSO (O-4). Because they are in the same line of work, even though I can hang out at her house and be friends w/her and her husband, we can't hang out as a couple. My husband is very strict on obeying fraternization rules and isn't about to do anything to risk his career. So it puts a major kink on what we can do socially with other couples. So for us, if it wasn't for fraternization rules, we would have absolutely no problem mingling with people of other ranks.
I actually sometimes feel “trapped” between two worlds. I went to college and have a degree like most officer spouses, yet my husband is enlisted. Many enlisted spouses do have a lot of disdain towards officer spouses. They talk about how so-and-so only went to college to “get her Mrs. degree”. It’s like they forget I have a degree & actually met my husband in high school. When I hang out with officer wives, they don’t take me seriously b/c my husband’s enlisted. I wish more people could just be open to meeting new friends, regardless of rank
IIf these Officer Spouses are so educated and have a degree, I would think they would naturally have some pride and accomplishment in their own success since their Officer Husband truly had nothing to do with her getting and accomplishing her educational goals.I'm very confused at your statement that you went to college and have a degree like most officer spouses. I have a degree and I'm an enlisted spouse and was recently informed by the Officer Spouses club that enlisted spouses weren't allowed to hold particular club positions because we weren't officer wives. I took that to be very shallow of the Officer's wives and insulting to me since my husband's rank qualified or disqualified me to hold an office in a stupid club. As a woman that is educated and 40, I thought that most women our age are educated and it's an insult to an educated woman to wear her husband's rank.
Before I married my husband I was enlisted in the Air Force. Now I am an officer spouse. I had my own problems with that because I only new a very few officer spouses that were worth talking too. So when I became an officer spouse I really didnt want to have anything to do with that group. I forced myself to over come this and went to many spouse things and found that I was wrong. There are many officer spouses that a great and welcomed me with open arms. The problem I have now is not necessarily that I am an officer spouse but I am a "pilot wife". This is also a stereotype within the military. I made a few friends outside of the pilot world and was told "I am cool for being a pilot wife." For me its a double whammy when it comes to "rankism". I am a proud officer spouse and a pilot wife.
I think rank should be left out of it for spouses. We do not…should not wear our husbands rank. I am not an officer my husband is and my sister is not enlisted her husband is. I understand that there are a lot of officer wives out there that do act a certain way, but so do enlisted wives. Once its known that I am an officer spouse I am sometimes treated differently. So just remember it goes both ways.
I didn't grow up in a military household, so when I got married to my husband, I didn't know what to expect from anyone. The only thing I had heard were stereotypes – officer's wives are snooty, enlisted wives are entitled and stuck up, and they ALL spend their husband's money!
I didn't think too much about these stereotypes, of course, but I was still pleasantly surprised when I started to meet people. Lo and behold… they're people just like me! Even the officer's wives I met were kind and wonderful and didn't care about the rank of our husbands. I hadn't even known that one of my friends, who I'd met through squadron functions, was an officer's spouse until she was introduced at the Enlisted Spouses Club meeting… as the President of the Officer's Spouses Club!!
Lower enlisted, NCOs, & officer's spouses – almost all of the ones I've met in the 5 years my husband has been in have been amazing. Sure there have been a couple of unamazing ones… but they are few and far between. All in all, we're in the same boat – we're a military family, and I love it!
When I read some of these posts I realized the military hasn't changed a bit even though it's all voluntary now. I can recall lots of times when I was made to feel like a low life (I was in from 1957-63) because I was only an E5 and in my job as a Hospital Corpsman (note capital letters) too many army nurses would put me in my place when I acted like I knew something. Their attitude was that anyone enlisted man who stayed in more than the required two years couldn't have any brains. When my young wife gave birth, an army nurse asked her who was going to take care of the baby. My 18 year old love told her very bluntly–"I will take care of my baby." When the new GI bill came out in the 70's I went back to school and got my R.N. I did not retiurn to the military.
I share CodyAnne's experience. My personal opinion on all of this "rankism" among spouses is; "We all put our panties on the same way. One leg at a time." As an enlisted wife, I've been on both sides of the wheel. My husband is enlisted, but works at headquarters so I'm a "HQ wife" which I'm not sure if that makes a hill of beans, but I get the "ohhhh, he's at HQ?" a smile, nod and a cold shoulder. I've had other enlisted spouses spit venom when an officer's wife seeks support during a deployment or a 365 unaccompanied tour. My theory is that they deal with the same exact obstacles I face. Just because their husband makes more money than mine, doesn't alleviate all the hurdles and struggles that a deployment brings into our lives and our children's world. I find it more in the "enlisted spouses" world that the rankism is greater. "ohhh she's Lt Col's wife" with a sigh, and my reply is "yep, her name is Debbie". They have names, children, life obstacles just like us enlisted wives, and when, we as enlisted wives can remove that chip off our shoulders and see each other as women, nothing more, nothing less, we could all get along much easier.
I just want I know when we are all going to stop all of this and just live. Spouses of jobs outside of the military never cause all of this talk and trouble, they just live, why can’t military spouses do the same?
The same thing happens in corporate America. The bosses wife is not friends with his employee's wife.
Hello in corporate America they don’t share same shopping space, church and other activities. How care I don’t my husband rank to feel good about myself and make good friends not superficial that only care about their own interest .
I am former AF and I resigned after having my 2nd child. I wore rank when I was active duty. I DO NOT wear rank anymore!! It irritates me to no end when I her about “rankism”. I do not bring up my husbands rank when I meet people, nor do I ask other spouses their or their spouses rank. It does not matter! I know this behavior will not stop until people start being confident in who they are quit living in their spouses rank or job. Let me get this straight…if you are not active duty, You DO NOT wear rank nor do other non active duty spouses. You sacrifice a lot as do your children, but you have not earned your spouses rank, He or she has.
Let’s face it, there are still a few dinosaurs left who believe their sacrifice wasn’t enough and they have to rely on their spouse career to have any amount of self respect. We should be proud of our spouses achievements and we know we have helped in some small way. Whether it is taking the day with the kids so he or she can study for a school, or being patient when we’re called the 4th time in a week with a dinner cancellation because of duty. If you are not happy with who you are you will never become happy riding on the coattails of another. Be happy with who you are and what you do and you will never have to worry about having friends. A friend will always accept you for who you are! Really do you want to be friends with someone who is nice to you only because of what your spouse does or because of who YOU are?
It`s sad to say that there are wives out there that use/wear thier husbands rank.I know thats why I shy way from frg meeting,Army Balls ETC. or anything the units have.Because I have always been asked what rank is your husband? When I tell them they don`t talk to me anymore or give you that look like her husband is lower rank. FOR EXPAMLE- I am taking a cake decorating class and there were a few ladies in the class.We all told each other our names and whay we wanted to take the decorating class.after a few minutes one ladies speaks out loud and ask us all if we were military? there was onlu 2 of us in the class that were military families.after we both said we were military wives,the ladies ask the other ladie what rank was her husband.the ladies said that her husband has onlu been in for 2 years and really didn`t know what rank he was.Then the ladie said he is a PVT in the military cause he don`t have that many years in.then turned to me and asked me what rank my husband was.I just looked at her because I was waiting for her to ask me the same question.I told her he is SFC and she said OOOoohhhh! CONT…
CONT….Then she turned away and never talk to us again.I wanted so bad to tell her off but, I wanted to be a better person then she was so I left it alone.My husband has been in 19 years in the Army.I NEVER wear my husbands rank! I never bring up my husbands rank when I do meet people or do I ask other spouses thier spouses rank.to me it dosn`t matter.If we can get along and hang out it all good.I agree with the Floriabug said A friend will always accept you for who you are! Really do you want to be friends with someone who is nice to you only because of what your spouse does or because of who YOU are?
I've thought about this issue for a long time. My husband and I have discussed it many times. Whether people want and wish for the "rankism" to go away, it won't. . ." Rankism" is a part of military life. I find it quite unfortunate that the few bad experiences can sour our opinion and for that matter, negate the great experiences we have between the ranks. As an Enlisted wife of thirteen years, I've had some really regretful experiences with Officer wives. In the more recent years, I've had wonderful redeeming experiences. I think that focusing on the good rather than the bad has helped me to look past the hurtful times and find friends that I cherish and love, regardless of the rank their husband holds.
I, myself, will be an Officer's wife due to my husband finishing PA school and commissioning, and I find that my quest has turned from being afraid of the change and the label, to working on becoming an Officer's wife that can be respected and seen as a support to my husband's role as a leader. Whether people see me with their biased glasses, I can not control. I can, however, control my behavior and the way I act in my new role.
Think the best of people. Be someone that can be respected. Let kindness mark your life. . . No matter the rank your husband holds.
After 24 yrs of military life, I introduce myself by my first name, when asked what my husband does, I tell them what unit he's in as my last name gives it away. Rank has no affiliation with spouses, it never has, its a stigmata that has drug itself out of the dark ages of long ago. Be friends with whom ever you choose, if they feel that the rank makes a difference, then they are not worth your time in that friendship.
We are all in the same boat, living the same life and one day we will all be retired and the rank our Warrior wore will not matter to a single living soul except us because we will be proud of what they did for this Nation.
Its time that everyone got over themselves, you married a Soldier, you are not in the military, conversations need not surround what they do, who they work for or what unit they are in, much less what rank they wear, try talking about yourselves and leave the military out of the equation, your life will be much more fulfilled as you travel the journey as a military spouse if you simply forget to ask that question, trust me…..or don't, your choice, but I have been doing this since the late 80's and with my experience I can tell you it never ends well.
I started doing this very early on (we're now married for 6 years), because people meet ME, the individual, not an accessory to my husband's profession. It does amuse me when I run into some rankist spouses who desperately want to know who my husband is, but generally I say it does not matter, because I am the one right in front of them.
That being said, my husband in his awesomeness managed to accompany me to a spouse club event, he chose to write on his name tag "Petra's +1"…I thought that one was quite funny and cool :)
As for the eternal officers' v. enlisted's spouses, I am beyond tired of it all. As you, soldierswife. stated, it should not matter when we meet each other as spouses, where our husbands stand in their career. I am tired of being accused of being either entitled or snooty or even both, depending on where the judging person assumes I stand – and that is before even one word was exchanged. We all need to get over ourselves and just BE ourselves. Be the individual your husband married and stop defining yourself solely by his job ;)
I straddle both worlds. My husband is an active duty enlisted Navy Sailor. I'm a reserve Navy officer. I'm lucky that so far that the wives of the commands Huzzy has been to don't really care about rank and all hang out together. Frankly, we don't even ask what each others' husband's ranks are because we don't care. If anything, we ask what department they are in just to know a bit about the job they do and if our husbands work together.
However, chiefs' wives do tend to hang out with each other more, but honestly? They are together more when the guys are home since Chiefs are only supposed to hang out with other Chiefs on the boat. So of COURSE the wives are going to know each other better.
I tend to not tell spouses that I'm an officer, mostly because if there WAS rankism in the group, I'd not fit in to any group. That and when it comes to the submarine stuff… I'm a wife. And that's all that matters.
Huzzy does sometimes feel uncomfortable when we go to functions for my Navy stuff since he's not used to hanging out with officers and THEIR spouses. But I figure he'll learn eventually ;)
I think the rankism among spouses is absolutely stupid. Have I seen it before? Yes. But I don't get it. We are all spouses. That's our rank. Our spouses all leave on deployment/patrol and we all go through the same emotions and stress at home because of it. So we are all of the same rank…. spouse.
I also introduce myself with just my first name. I want people to judge me for what I say and do and not for what rank my husband is. I'm ok with the "what unit is he with" question, but always hesitate when I am asked what he does in the unit and it makes me extremely uncomfortable. I have become concerned about the fact that I am in my mid 40's and I don't want people to think that I don't want to become BFFs because of my husbands rank when the real reason is age difference. Some of the wives I run into now are young enough to be my daughter and it's apparent that perspective and experience is very different between the mid 40s and the 20s. I will become acquaintances with any spouse regardless of husband's rank and I also don't care if they are married to an enlisted or an officer. When it comes to couples friends and inviting them over, I do heed the Marine Corps' strict fraternization rules so that my husband can be comfortable in his own home on his off time.
Well, there it is! The corps have strict fraternization rules! Be as nice as you can be to everyone, but in the end there are "rules" of conduct for everyone that dictate what you can and cannot do. It's the military.
What is hard for me is that we are older than most Military. I am 33, he is 36 but he joined later in life. Most of the other wives married to soldiers his same rank are really young. So if I find other women who are my age, their husbands always outrank mine. It isn't a big deal to me but I think it is sometimes weird for my husband.
Omg do I really care that my neighbor is officer or enlisted is that define the personality values and the good u can get if you get to know them. Im an enlisted wife very proud of my hubby cuz in the line of fire all are equal they don’t choose to kill either one of them at the end of the day they are soldiers. I don’t need to feel out or in of a group cux of what my husband do. I’m always very proud and at the end of the day I know that if a person act different is cux they have insecurities . The army wives in general that think they wear the rank of their husband need to get real life is not what u husband wear on the uniform is what kind of human being he is snd what u want to reach your kids cux life give you surprised and you dont want to set a bad example for our future military generations.
We spent 4 years in Germany and it did seems like rank didn't matter as much over there. I was friends with the XOs wife and many of the higher ranking officer's wives. I wasn't best buddies with them, inviting them over or anything like that but we were friends. Here in the US that just doesn't seem very likely for some reason. Maybe because in Germany the Military community was so much smaller.
Years ago at Sandia Base out West there was quite a problem with this….ENLISTED…OFFICER wife stuff. The base commander had a meeting for ALL of the wives to settle this once and for all. Enlisted & Officer wives were at the meeting. Once the ladies were all seated the base c.o. stepped up to the podium and said "Ladies please seat yourselves according to rank". There was a shuffle of chairs and after about 5 minutes when all was quiet the c.o. stepped up to the podium again and said "LADIES, YOU HAVE NO RANK" and walked out.
That was a very wise men!!!! If I wanted rank i need to be a soldier!!!!
I like that the commander did that for those ladies. Now, if other servicemembers say the same to their spouses, I don't believe rankism would be as bad throughout the community. I served in the military and now I'm a military spouse, but the one thing that remains constant is that I have never liked a spouse that thought they wore their husband/wife rank. I think it is ridiculous. No one set of people are better than the other. I try to get along with everyone.
How many times have I heard that story in different situations. Sounds like an urban ledgend.
Here is the issue and WHY you have rankism with spouses. When two wives hang out together and become friends it is NORMAL that their spouses then also become friends. Well, in the military if one is an officer and the other enlisted then that becomes a problem, especially if they are in the same unit…which is how a lot of spouses meet in the first place. The reason you wind up with a lot of separation between officer and enlisted spouses isn't because the spouses can't be friends, but the military members can't really have that kind of relationship.
I don't agree. I'm not friends with any of my fiancee's friends. I mean we have gone out on group outings once in a while, but i'm not friends with them or talk to them other then when we're all together.
Regs should really only apply to members of the military not civilians.
Cpl C
RCAF
Note, the key thing to remember is that wile rank should not matter it does…. a offier in a unit can not hang out with the enlisted unless all in his chain of command are invited. While wives ( I use wives since I am males; could be a husband also) do not fall into this, imagine if SGT Jone's wife is hanging out with his Batt commanders wife…… how does it look, does he get his name thrown out more often….. rank is there for a reason, to seprate and create order…… wives need to remember that too… however, all spouses should be kind to the others since they do not actually wear any rank. Officers and enlisted must remain seperate, but spouses can do what they want…. as long as it does not bother good order and moral…….
Really, does everyone have to play together
Sorry for typos
Note, the key thing to remember is that while rank should not matter it does…. an officer in a unit cannot hang out with the enlisted unless all in his chain of command are invited. While wives ( I use wives since I am males; could be a husband also) do not fall into this, imagine if SGT Jone's wife is hanging out with his Batt commanders wife…… how does it look, does he get his name thrown out more often….. Rank is there for a reason; to separate and create order…… wives need to remember that too… however, all spouses should be kind to the others since they do not actually wear any rank. Officers and enlisted must remain separate, but spouses can do what they want…. as long as it does not bother good order and moral…….
Really, does everyone have to play together
OK then, lets do away with the built in spouce elietism in the military. No more duplex housing. No more seprate housing for enlisted vrs officer. That will enable all of our wives/husbands/children to play together. Just let your active duty spouce know that if you have a problem with so and so that it can not spill over in to the work place. (as it currently does and the reason all enlisted advise their wives not to get to close) Remeber, the first reaction of the average man is to fix a problem. So when you complain about Betty being a sow and I happen to be the CO of Betty's husband, guess what is gonna happen.
Yes there is a difference in the ranks. Officers wives for the most part (NOT ALL BUT A LARGE PART) think that since their husband is an Officer they are superior to the enlisted wives. My late wife was told one time during a Battalion wives meetings. She was told "Oh you are just an NCO's wife". My wife was accused of taking some money from the wives fund. My wife quit and a few days later it was found that an Officers wife spent some money and did not report it. My wife never got a so much as we are sorry.
I had a Bn Commanders wife what want to be addressed as Mrs Colonel Sellers. I will have to say that once the commander heard that he stopped her. But it happens
While it might be tricky sometimes to know what's appropriate within your spouse's chain of command, I see absolutely no reason to bring rank into the picture outside of the chain. When my husband was the commander of a small tenant unit and we lived on base for the first time, I became friends with officers, enlisted, and their spouses alike. When my husband and I separated, I sought support from these friends and they were there for me. When we got back together, they were equally supportive. Living the nomadic military lifestyle that we do, why would you alienate yourself from so many potential friends, especially when you may need to lean on them (or they on you) in a time of need? If your spouse is deployed and you're feeling lonely, why would you turn away the equally lonely spouse down the street because of her husband's rank? Be your own person, make your own friends, and leave your spouse's position out of it!
I've been married to the military for over 15 years and quite honestly am still sickened by spouses that feel their husband/wive's rank somehow has anything to do with their daily lives. If you didn't earn it, it's not your rank to run with. Its easy to judge Enlisted vs. Officer. There is a stereotype for both. There are both good and bad NCOs and Officers in every unit that have earned the stereotypes. The Mrs. Sergeant blog name- get your own identity. Don't live off of your husband's accomplishments and especially while sitting there judging other people upon something that doesn't make them who they are either.
You can't win here. As a military spouse for many years, I have younger spouses who consider me to be their mentor (which in some ways, I consider an honor – after I get over how old it makes me feel!). But then I also have younger spouses who either go out of their way to avoid me (and make sure I don't get invited to spouse events) or could care less about the experience I've chalked up, and will totally ignore me as they work on getting their husband to the top. The bottom line is that we can all learn from each other – it's a question of putting aside preconceived notions.
I am an Officer's wife and have been for the entire time he has been in the military which is 25 years. I don't practice rankism but have had people tell me in some groups I have been in to make sure I don;t really mention that my husband is an officer because some other people in the group had issues with officers. I have no such issues and have had great examples from other wives before me who were very gracious in their behaviors towards others. I think some people decide to miss meeting great people because they won't meet either officer or enlisted spouses. There is no need for that.
1) Fascinating comments, I've learned a lot from this thread.
2) My point of view from the other side: I'm a military man, been in 21 years and married 14. My wife wears my rank only by saying "I'm a xxxx wife, I better not embarrass him or his rank." It's not something for her to wield over other people, it's for her to use inwardly.
I would NEVER tell my wife that she can't make friends with enlisted or officer wives, and she has had several that weren't the same approximate rank as me. And our kids play together as well. But my interaction with the other husband is going to be very limited. It's just the way it is. Some of it is work related, and some of it is just that I don't have much in common with them. My problems aren't their problems, for example.
BUT, I want to do couple stuff with my wife. She's my best friend. Since I have a limited band of people that I can socialize with on-post, it limits the couples that I would introduce to her to people of roughly the same rank as I am. When I meet someone at work that I want to hang out with and get to know, I encourage my wife to meet his wife and usually it's a person that's the same rank as me.
I am so glad you posted this. It doesn't come off that well when I, a military spouse, try to explain it.
I come from a "rank-a-dacious" family. As a former enlisted service member, married to Mustang (Navy term for: enlisted to LDO), and the mother of an enlisted service member, I understand why rank is important. However, I do not understand why spouses make such a big deal out of it. There are certain protocols that should be followed in certain situations, but overall, we are all military spouses. In my experience, most of the "rankism" I personally experienced occurred while I lived in military housing. I admit that I have been shunned by enlisted spouses, which is annoying, but I discovered that they ease up when I inform them that I was enlisted. I have meet many enlisted and officer spouses that are inspiring and wonderful. I have also met spouses that were horrible. In this day and age, all spouses need to avoid wearing their service members' rank and live by their own accomplishments. Although I am proud of my husband and son's service to our country, I do not readily offer information regarding their ranks, jobs, or any other service information. On the other hand, if someone wants to know my accomplishments as an individual, I will be more than happy to talk about my acceptance into graduate school, my awesome/amazing kids, my really crazy boss, or offer any tips on how to make life easier as a military spouse and mom. Basically, the things I accomplished that make me who "I" am does not include my husband's rank. I will, however, take credit for being his biggest fan :O) Otherwise, we should treat all military spouses and members as equals when we first meet. We owe each other the initial respect, especially being military spouses and knowing the sacrifices military spouses and their families make every day.
It just honestly doesn’t matter. I’ve heard urban legends that my types have maids and decorating allowances provided by the military. No, when I come home from work tomorrow I will clean my house myself. Just keeping it real….. Seriously, any spouse who is living vicariously through her husband to the extent that his rank becomes her own identity really needs to take a hard look at herself. Can she survive if he fails? I doubt it. And what will she do with herself when he is no longer in the military and nobody is saluting him and there are no more social events to attend? No thanks! Of course we cannot escape the issues of rank, but it is so important to have lives of our own — completely unrelated to the military — for our own sake. And we all need civilian friends that don’t care about or even understand rank. My closest friends are on the E side of the fence, but our friendships started because we had personal interests that had nothing to do with the military.
I'm currently a fiance and until the past couple of months thought this entire rank issue was blown way out of proportion and couldn't possibly impact my life. I couldn't care less what little symbols DF sticks on his uniform each day!
We've had a few instances in the past months that have made me realize that people do force rank to affect the spouses life and friendships. Several times recently, DF has worked late and ended up at my house in uniform when we had guests visiting. People who we've known for several months now address him differently, and reference rank in their conversations with me … as in " since DF is an O, y'all will have to xyz" or similar comments. I want to scream … "I know good and well his rank. I don't need you reminding me over dinner!"
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Also, whenever we are carrying on conversations with a new couple we've met and the service member figures out DF's rank (or just E v. O status), they'll instantly switch from addressing him by his name into "sir" this and "sir" that. DF makes it a point not to bring up rank or his particular job which is only avaliable on the O side, but it eventually puts a different filter on our relationships with other couples.
That said, we've had one experience so far for which I am SO thankful where a girlfriend of mine's husband didn't react all awkward when he and DF met. As it turns out as both AF men they have tons in common … ya know boy stuff like guns and outdoors and other ickyness :)
We're blessed to currently live near family and non-military friends but I do wonder how we'll do once we marry and PCS later this year!
I have been a military spouse for 23 years. After reflecting and mulling over the topic (Which I might add that in 23 years I have not ever given much thought to) I believe the problem starts with wives tales. My Aunt has stories of having been told by an officer's wife to take her laundry off the line because the officer's wife felt entitled to being first. That is and should be laughable now. I think when young wives are welcomed into the military community some of these "old" stories are repeated over and over and through the years a stereotype has blossomed. I am not saying that I am naive that there is a small percentage of spouses who still do wear their spouses rank. I know of one General's wife in particular who was a doozy! I do believe the percentage is small but, the gals become notorious at their duty station and the stories can go on for years and then you have that seed of a stereotype. I am Taylor, I am not my husbands rank. I honestly don't care to know what rank your spouse is. Trust me I will not be impressed
or intimidated, nor feel superior or find you inferior. I will add though that I was in a situation where a child of mine was friends with a boy whose fathers rank was different from my spouse. When the boys Mother heard this she actually told MY child that I was probably a snooty officers spouse. I was shocked. I did not know if I should be mad, insulted or just feel sorry for her ignorance. She did not know me and yet she already had the idea in her head of who I was because of rank. That was my first time to be confronted with Rankism and also my child's. She was in middle school and had to ask me what rank her Dad was and what it meant.Personally I think I had done a fine job raising a military child who did not care what her friends parents rank was.They were just friends who lived a similar lifestyle and could relate to each other. Why can't grown ups act the same way?
As for not living off your spouses accomplishments… Your spouse would not be in the position he/she is in and be able to perform their required duties without hesitation if it were not for you. Don't ever underestimate the military spouse. Their accomplishments are your accomplishments also. You are the glue that holds it all together. Just play nice.
'What is your husbands rank?'-officer wife. 'He is an E8 a Sr Chief.'-me. 'What comes after that?' – Officer wife. 'E9 Master Chief'- me. 'So then after that does he become an officer?!' – Officers wife asks excitedly., sadly this is a true story …. the majority (not all) of officers spouses feel very entitled. They think very little of the enlisted community and that includes the spouses. They look at their active duty spouse as prestigious white collar, enlisted as the dirty blue collar. To top it off most wear their spouses rank on their collar, they have no problem being in an exclusive club with other officer spouses, knowing each new duty station this club awaits them, you will find officer spouses club everywhere, this is not the same for enlisted spouses. The support system does not exsist at all commands for enlisted spouses wanting a spouses group to attend.
Plain and simple if you are an Enlisted Spouse, you WILL be Ostracized by an Officers spouse, at some point during your spouses career, and sadly it WILL be more than once. Its a moral issue and those at the top should address it… problem is their spouse is terrified to socialize with those "dirty blue collar spouses".